Paul33 Posted December 8, 2021 Share Posted December 8, 2021 8 minutes ago, ml1dch said: Is the answer "they didn't"? Okay ...... the question is why did more vote Tory than Labour ? What did they see that you didn't ? Have you ever voted Tory (out of curiosity) ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul33 Posted December 8, 2021 Share Posted December 8, 2021 (edited) 10 minutes ago, bickster said: I really don't think a Labour government of a century ago is very relevant to today do you. In fact there really is only 1 period of Labour Government that is of relevance to the modern world and thats 1997 - 2010 Applause for your stubborn loyalty ! As I said above, party loyalists will never back down ...... which is why these debates can never end and are pointless ! Edited December 8, 2021 by Paul33 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted December 8, 2021 Moderator Share Posted December 8, 2021 5 minutes ago, Paul33 said: Applause for your stubborn loyalty I don't vote Labour (very often), I just object to people peddling nonsense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markavfc40 Posted December 8, 2021 Share Posted December 8, 2021 5 minutes ago, Paul33 said: If you want to understand the reason the NHS struggles beyond Daily Mirror headlines, look at that demand data that is out there because the answer is to reduce that demand. The NHS is being misused and that is the problem ..... we are screwing it up ! Isn't one of the main causes of the demand the fact we have thousands of elderly people taking up hospital beds due to the state of elderly adult social care which was decimated post 2010. The Tories are still doing next to f all to improve elderly care other than the latest cobbled together so called plan which surprise surprise hits those near the bottom of the rung the most. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted December 8, 2021 Share Posted December 8, 2021 11 minutes ago, Paul33 said: If you want to understand the reason the NHS struggles beyond Daily Mirror headlines, look at that demand data that is out there because the answer is to reduce that demand. The NHS is being misused and that is the problem ..... we are screwing it up ! I would be interested to hear how you think we could, at scale, 'reduce demand' for healthcare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul33 Posted December 8, 2021 Share Posted December 8, 2021 3 minutes ago, bickster said: I just object to people peddling nonsense Peddling nonsense presumably being anything you disagree with ? The unemployment record may be something you dislike because it challenges your own bias but it is fact not nonsense and a five minute Google session will back that ! At the end of the day, I'm sitting here smiling with beer in hand ..... I don't get you pseudo-politicians taking it all so seriously. Whatever party is in power will always do some things well and screw up with others so making a big issue of the failings and seeing that as justifying a vote for the others is plain madness ..... unless you believe the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence and it never is ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MessiWillSignForVilla Posted December 8, 2021 Share Posted December 8, 2021 1 hour ago, Paul33 said: Assume that you also noted that Labour has historically been the party of unemployment with an increase in unemployment under every Labour government since the war ? Should you not mention that too in fairness ? Because it's not true. https://fullfact.org/economy/labours-record-on-unemployment/ Quote WHAT WAS CLAIMED Every time the Labour party has been in government, it has left unemployment higher than when it came in. OUR VERDICT Only two of Labour’s periods in government are covered by the most recent comparable data, but this is not quite correct looking at the data we have over all times Labour was in government.. Unemployment fell during Ramsay MacDonald’s first term in 1924. Labour was also part of a war time coalition during which unemployment fell. Plus here's a graph I just whipped up from the ONS data (Unfortunately they only have 1971 onwards). Blair and Callaghan both left office with lower unemployment rates, Brown's was initially going down before the GFC, and Wilson went up. It should be noted that only May had a consistent downward trend out of the Tory PMs, though that seems to just be a continuation of Cameron eventually seeing a consistent decline. Major and Heath ended up similar to Callaghan in that they squeaked under the line in their final months to finish with a slightly lower rate, and the two biggest spikes came under Thatcher and Major. But then again, of course most PMs will see a rise in unemployment, as that tends to be one of the death knells of a government, which the next one has to come in to try to wrestle back to an acceptable level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul33 Posted December 8, 2021 Share Posted December 8, 2021 5 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said: I would be interested to hear how you think we could, at scale, 'reduce demand' for healthcare. I don't have the magic answer but moving the use of Pharmacists, Walk In Centres, GPs, #111 from advisory towards compulsory would be a massive move. I heard on Newsnight last week something about 95% of A&E walk-ins came from a crazy small number (can't recall exactly) of the same people. I make use of Pharmacy diagnosis and in more worrying cases I phone 111 and act on their advice ..... I haven't walked into A&E (other than with my daughter) since my footballing days ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted December 8, 2021 Moderator Share Posted December 8, 2021 1 minute ago, Paul33 said: Peddling nonsense presumably being anything you disagree with ? The unemployment record may be something you dislike because it challenges your own bias but it is fact not nonsense and a five minute Google session will back that ! Like I've already said, there's only one Labour adminstration thats remotely relevant to today and I've already said what happened to unemplyment in that period. It doesn't challenge my bias because generally I don't vote Labour and that has been stated many times on this forum, I'm mainly a critic of the Labour Party. I'm saying your little factoid isn't relevant to anything, its a nonsensensical idea that its relevant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xann Posted December 8, 2021 Share Posted December 8, 2021 Quote distraction theft noun [ C or U ] mainly UK uk/dɪˈstræk.ʃən ˌθeft/ us/dɪˈstræk.ʃən ˌθeft/ a crime in which someone steals something from another person after tricking them into giving their attention to something else Cambridge Dictionary.org 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul33 Posted December 8, 2021 Share Posted December 8, 2021 2 minutes ago, MessiWillSignForVilla said: Because it's not true. Also on the FullFact.Org page .......... "For all but one of the six periods when Labour governed on its own, the unemployment rate was higher at the end of its office than at the beginning. But during Labour leader Ramsay MacDonald’s term in 1924, the limited data available shows that the unemployment rate fell. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted December 8, 2021 Moderator Share Posted December 8, 2021 1 minute ago, Paul33 said: I heard on Newsnight last week something about 95% of A&E walk-ins came from a crazy small number (can't recall exactly) of the same people. You do know that these people generally have mental health issues and its the lack of provision for these people that is the issue and that comes down to funding and guess which party? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul33 Posted December 8, 2021 Share Posted December 8, 2021 1 minute ago, bickster said: You do know that these people generally have mental health issues and its the lack of provision for these people that is the issue and that comes down to funding and guess which party? You know that ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MessiWillSignForVilla Posted December 8, 2021 Share Posted December 8, 2021 2 minutes ago, Paul33 said: Also on the FullFact.Org page .......... "For all but one of the six periods when Labour governed on its own, the unemployment rate was higher at the end of its office than at the beginning. But during Labour leader Ramsay MacDonald’s term in 1924, the limited data available shows that the unemployment rate fell. " So the claim that every Labour government saw unemployment rise isn't true then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted December 8, 2021 Moderator Share Posted December 8, 2021 Just now, Paul33 said: You know that ? Yes, go and ask an A&E doctor. Part of the issue is that the beds are full of people (many with MH issues and others) that are medically fit to be released but there's nowhere to send them It's well documented Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul33 Posted December 8, 2021 Share Posted December 8, 2021 (edited) 5 minutes ago, bickster said: Yes, go and ask an A&E doctor. Part of the issue is that the beds are full of people (many with MH issues and others) that are medically fit to be released but there's nowhere to send them It's well documented Well documented by the NHS who show "psychiatric" issues in 19th place on their 2019/20 list of top 20 reasons for A&E attendance.https://www.statista.com/statistics/823462/number-of-accident-and-emergency-attendances-by-diagnosis-in-england/ Anyway, I am off (again) now ...... going round in circles ! Thanks for the debate and banter ..... you argue your points well ! Edited December 8, 2021 by Paul33 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted December 8, 2021 Share Posted December 8, 2021 33 minutes ago, Paul33 said: Okay ...... the question is why did more vote Tory than Labour ? What did they see that you didn't (1)? Have you ever voted Tory (out of curiosity) (2)? (1) A couple of foreign people that for some reason they hated? (2) Of course not. I'm not on any sort of social services watch-list, which rules me out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul33 Posted December 8, 2021 Share Posted December 8, 2021 1 minute ago, ml1dch said: (1) A couple of foreign people that for some reason they hated? (2) Of course not. I'm not on any sort of social services watch-list, which rules me out. Is that the best you can do ? Really ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted December 8, 2021 Share Posted December 8, 2021 6 minutes ago, Paul33 said: Is that the best you can do ? Really ? It's probably better than posting a load of stuff that I didn't really understand on about six different topics, then spend an hour desperately following up with "yes I got that wrong, but..." posts on all of them. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted December 8, 2021 Moderator Share Posted December 8, 2021 14 hours ago, Paul33 said: Well documented by the NHS who show "psychiatric" issues in 19th place on their 2019/20 list of top 20 reasons for A&E attendance. What has reason for attendance got to do with it? It's irrelevant EDIT: As you find this amsuing, therefore not understanding the point, I'll explain. People are admitted to hospital because of a medical need, say they've broken their ankle but they can't be discharged because there's nowhere suitable to discharge them too because of other non-emergency, usually mental health related issues (I include older vulnerable people with Altzheimers etc in this broad category). They are medically fit to be discharged as the issue they presented with is now treated. There's nowhere to discharge them too, so they stay in hospital until there is. This is what causes the bed logjam 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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