The Hillsborough inquest

[blandy]

Good. Then let's move along.

[lapal_fan]

**** ME THAT WAS BORING READING.

Why didn't I just click off the topic you ask?

BECAUSE I WAS HOPING SOMEONE WOULD THROW A PIE.

IT DIDN'T HAPPEN.

**** asshats, making me read all boring stuff and stuff

[rodders0223]

What the **** did I just read.

Back to the safe haven of the transfer specualtion thread. Good day to you all.

[HanoiVillan]

2 hours ago, Woodytom said:

For the record snowychap. 

I do believe the Liverpool fans drove a train through the police non existent plan. I used this an example to emphasise how procedures need to be adapted in all walks of life...... 

 

That doesn't mean I'm blaming the Liverpool fans for the hillsborough disaster.

 

It was a point I was making that sometimes procedures have to be adapted in order to cope with the demand of the environment and how the ruthless blame culture society has discouraged people from being adaptable. 

 

There's a really good quote I think it's 

Managers follow procedures, leaders use them as guidlines

But it was a point that I made away from hillsborough and I made that very clear in my post.

I know you've said you feel you aren't as articulate as you wish, and I'm not meaning to pile on, but a decent rule of thumb is to look back at what you've written:

'I do believe the Liverpool fans drove a train through the police non existent plan.'

And think, is it possible to drive a train through a non-existent plan? If not - and obviously not - what does the fact that my metaphor makes no sense suggest about my understanding of the situation? 

FWIW, I think there are one or two points you've made about changing cultures and so on that would be productive and interesting to discuss, but it's snowed under a lot of misunderstanding. 

[snowychap]

2 hours ago, Woodytom said:

None of which relate to the misquoting morton's fork bollocks that you keep banging on about.

I've not been misquoting - you have continually returned to the 'opening of the gate' and used it as the basis for some sort of hypothetical surrounding a 'split second decision' in the midst of errors and mistakes (as opposed to that being one decision amongst many that amounted to gross negligence).

 

2 hours ago, Woodytom said:

the unexpected number of Liverpool fans.

And we're back to the 'ticketless fans' line again (surely only the ones without tickets would have been unexpected?).

 

1 hour ago, Woodytom said:

I've never once blamed the Liverpool fan's

 

3 hours ago, Woodytom said:

I do believe the Liverpool fans drove a train through the police non existent plan.

The claim and this opinion you previously expressed are not compatible.

Edited April 28, 2016 by snowychap

[HanoiVillan]

Let's think a bit more about this. Trains are a fairly appropriate metaphor I think. Mr Duckenfield was even standing in a box, not totally unlike a signal box. The trains are supporters, going about doing their thing, and the signals and block systems and switches are the normal, well-understood police plan for crowd control. 

The situation we actually have is a controller turning up in the signal box, not realising that train safety was part of his job and not familiarising himself with how any of the equipment worked. Then, when the inevitable happened and there was a multi-train pile-up, the signalman spent the next twenty years lying about what happened and slandering dead train drivers. 

[Woodytom]

37 minutes ago, snowychap said:

you have continually returned to the 'opening of the gate' and used it as the basis for some sort of hypothetical surrounding a 'split second decision' in the midst of errors and mistakes (as opposed to that being one decision amongst many that amounted to gross negligence).

No I haven't. I used it as one example of how that certain mistake wasn't as clear cut as I believe everybody makes out. Not once have I failed to acknowledge the monumental amount of mistakes the authorities made. My first post even described dukinfield as out of his depth and riddled with mistakes. I don't understand why you insist on not acknowledging that. 

One of the findings of the inquest was that the gate being opened was a mistake. It's one of a few points but is singled out from much broader points like 'there were police errors in controlling the crowd'.

It makes it sound like the gate being opened was a major 'mistake'. It was major don't get me wrong in causing what it caused but to single it out as an individual 'mistake' like the inquest does is wrong imo because it had to be done due to the mistakes that had proceeded it.

For me, there not being enough police presence from the onset is a bigger mistake than the gate being opened yet it's not singled out.

[blandy]

The inconsistency and contradictions between (and within) your posts is staggering, Woody. This is what causes people to respond in the way they do.

As in "There were thousands of ticketless fans" then recognition that you had no evidence of that "ok, I was over-exaggerating" but then you go on to say that the" unexpected number" of fans was a factor and that video evidence shows this (it absolutely does not). It's like making stuff up again.

We know that there were "a small number" of ticketless fans at the game. That's been established, and is entirely consistent with just about every other major sporting event, anywhere.

You clearly haven't read the evidence at all, or taken it into account when making your statements

19 minutes ago, Woodytom said:

for me there not being enough police presence from the onset is a bigger mistake than the gate being opened

 Being the latest.

I think I'm done here.

[Stevo985]

This is genuinely fascinating.

[Woodytom]

11 minutes ago, blandy said:

The inconsistency and contradictions between (and within) your posts is staggering, Woody. This is what causes people to respond in the way they do.

As in "There were thousands of ticketless fans" then recognition that you had no evidence of that "ok, I was over-exaggerating" but then you go on to say that the" unexpected number" of fans was a factor and that video evidence shows this (it absolutely does not). It's like making stuff up again.

We know that there were "a small number" of ticketless fans at the game. That's been established, and is entirely consistent with just about every other major sporting event, anywhere.

You clearly haven't read the evidence at all, or taken it into account when making your statements

 Being the latest.

I think I'm done here.

Why is that staggering?

A bigger police presence and the crush outside doesn't happen. So the gate doesn't need to be opened.

And yes I have read the evidence, thanks.

[sexbelowsound]

2 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

This is genuinely fascinating.

This. 

[Woodytom]

1 hour ago, snowychap said:

And we're back to the 'ticketless fans' line again (surely only the ones without tickets would have been unexpected?).

Yeah, not sure what ya point is here?

[bobzy]

After all that has come out about Hillsborough, people are still making things up to try and apportion blame to Liverpool fans?

 

I'm staggered reading this.  Thread should probably be closed.

[Woodytom]

17 minutes ago, blandy said:

I think I'm done here.

Yeah its probably a good thing as you appear to be just targeting my posts with a certain mindset (probably brought on by myself but again that's another thing I've acknowledged) without actually really debating my points.

Shame really.

[Woodytom]

1 hour ago, HanoiVillan said:

FWIW, I think there are one or two points you've made about changing cultures and so on that would be productive and interesting to discuss

Thanks 

[snowychap]

5 minutes ago, Woodytom said:

Yeah, not sure what ya point is here?

22 minutes ago, blandy said:

As in "There were thousands of ticketless fans" then recognition that you had no evidence of that "ok, I was over-exaggerating" but then you go on to say that the" unexpected number" of fans was a factor and that video evidence shows this (it absolutely does not). It's like making stuff up again.

 

 

 

 

[snowychap]

24 minutes ago, blandy said:

I think I'm done here.

Me, too. I'm off to do some weeding.

[Woodytom]

Another question you've failed to answer snowychap.

Where have I said that those with tickets were unexpected?

[Woodytom]

7 minutes ago, bobzy said:

After all that has come out about Hillsborough, people are still making things up to try and apportion blame to Liverpool fans?

 

I'm staggered reading this.  Thread should probably be closed.

Why don't you read all my posts before you start making things up based on the massive out of context mis quotation of snowychap and blandy?

At times my lack of subtlety has contributed to that and i've acknowledged that. Despite this, they've continued to quote the parts of my post that fit their argument that I blame the liverpool fans - which is simply not true.

[Woodytom]

4 minutes ago, snowychap said:

Me, too. I'm off to do some weeding.

See my last post to blandy.