Woodytom Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 9 minutes ago, foreveryoung said: Hmmm, could be opening a can of worms here chap. So it takes the police to stop fans getting in the ground without a ticket, this is true, an a failing by SYP But it doesn't take away the fact it's a criminal offence by the fans, trying to force there way in. Biiiiiiiiiiiiig can of worms 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Woodytom said: I've read it. I'm not disputing any of it. I'm not sure why people keep posting it? Because you keep posting stuff like this: 19 minutes ago, Woodytom said: However, you are now at the stage where the mistakes have happened and the overcrowding has occurred..... so he HAS to open the gate to relieve the pressure outside. and accepting as 'mistakes' everything done and not done that led to the decision having to be made and largely ignoring everything that happened afterwards and that was not done afterwards just so that you can push something about a 'split second' decision and hindsight and 1989 was different to 2016 and other claptrap, such as: 15 minutes ago, Woodytom said: I don't know about anyone else, but if I don't have a ticket, I don't go. Basic human nature. Edited April 27, 2016 by snowychap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodytom Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 So its not basic human nature to not turn up to an event if you don't have a ticket? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 3 minutes ago, Woodytom said: So its not basic human nature to not turn up to an event if you don't have a ticket? Where's this 'basic human nature' crock come from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 49 minutes ago, Woodytom said: I've read it. I'm not disputing any of it. I'm not sure why people keep posting it? All of that is monstrous mistakes from the police that led to the overcrowding. However, you are now at the stage where the mistakes have happened and the overcrowding has occurred..... so he HAS to open the gate to relieve the pressure outside. Not once have I took any blame away from SYP just highlighted how it's very difficult to look at the incident in a balanced view. I know people who were there, very well in fact and it's just not as clear cut as the gate should never have been opened etc. And that's all I suggested. That crush was happening either way. Through poor planning and too many fans - the hillsborough disaster unfortunately was a disaster that was going to happen sooner or later. Whether it be that day or at another ground. It was a dreadful day. Truly horrific but if it wasn't then, it would have been another time - football just wasn't a safe day out back then. I think people are puzzled why you're insisting on highlighting the moment he had a difficult decision to make rather than addressing the dozens of earlier moments when just doing his **** job properly would have meant the difficult decision would never have occurred. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodytom Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 Just now, snowychap said: Where's this 'basic human nature' crock come from? Well it's alright saying it's 'basic' crowd control to not let people in with tickets. Any basic crowd control went out the window when so many turned up without tickets. I'm not sure what thought process would lead someone to try and get into a 'ticket' event, without a ticket. Makes no sense to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodytom Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 2 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said: I think people are puzzled why you're insisting on highlighting the moment he had a difficult decision to make rather than addressing the dozens of earlier moments when just doing his **** job properly would have meant the difficult decision would never have occurred. Because it happens to be the moment that imo, is used as the biggest reason it happened. And I don't agree with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Rev Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 46 minutes ago, Woodytom said: I don't know about anyone else, but if I don't have a ticket, I don't go. Basic human nature. Most games at the time you could pay on the gate, it was extremely common for people to turn up without a ticket and get in. Even if the semi final was all ticket then a lot of people could plead ignorance as it was much harder to get the news out back then because there were only four TV channels and no internet. I'm sure that there would have been plenty of people willing to try their luck to pay on the turnstyle too. I'm not entirely sure when it became a legal requirement for football matches of a certain size to become all ticket but I certainly paid on the gate at Villa Park all the time when I first started going to the football as a kid in the early 90s. Was the requirement a part of the Taylor Report? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 5 minutes ago, Woodytom said: Well it's alright saying it's 'basic' crowd control to not let people in with tickets. Any basic crowd control went out the window when so many turned up without tickets. I'm not sure what thought process would lead someone to try and get into a 'ticket' event, without a ticket. Makes no sense to me. It this another attemp to try and blame the Liverpool fans? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodytom Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 3 minutes ago, The_Rev said: Most games at the time you could pay on the gate, it was extremely common for people to turn up without a ticket and get in. Yep fairs fair. I've banged on about different era's and while policing, health and safety were different so was access to the games. Not sure where the all ticket came from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 4 minutes ago, Woodytom said: Well it's alright saying it's 'basic' crowd control to not let people in with tickets. Any basic crowd control went out the window when so many turned up without tickets. I'm not sure what thought process would lead someone to try and get into a 'ticket' event, without a ticket. Makes no sense to me. What on earth has that got to do with 'basic human nature'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 7 minutes ago, Woodytom said: Because it happens to be the moment that imo, is used as the biggest reason it happened. And I don't agree with that. Well, okay, fine. Let's stop talking about it then, and start talking instead about how he had utterly failed to familiarise himself with standard police crowd control procedures, the layout of the ground or even that crowd control was part of his job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodytom Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 3 minutes ago, LondonLax said: It this another attemp to try and blame the Liverpool fans? No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodytom Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 2 minutes ago, snowychap said: What on earth has that got to do with 'basic human nature'? Well making sure you have a ticket is what I would consider basic human behaviour when it comes to attending an event. Not sure where the confusion is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodytom Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 2 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said: Well, okay, fine. Let's stop talking about it then, and start talking instead about how he had utterly failed to familiarise himself with standard police crowd control procedures, the layout of the ground or even that crowd control was part of his job. Yep. Fatal errors. As I've said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Woodytom said: Well making sure you have a ticket is what I would consider basic human behaviour when it comes to attending an event. Not sure where the confusion is. I am asking you what the **** 'basic human nature' has to do with it? You can't just repeat that you consider it to be basic human nature (or behaviour now) and deem that to be a sufficient explanation or response to the question asking you what deciding to try and attend a ticket event without already possessing a ticket has to do with 'basic human nature'. Edit: Plenty of people have attended events without already being in possession of tickets for that event. I went to an event today and was able to buy one at the gate. I have been to Cheltenham Festival and obtained tickets from a tout outside because they were sold out on the gate; I have also been and got tickets from the chaps outside when I knew none were on sale on the gate. I seem to remember people talking about going down to Wembley last May without tickets (whether they were going down to hang around, try and get tickets and get in or whatever I can't say). I guess that was in the thread about last season's final. You appear to be trying to introduce some sort of comment about 'human nature' or 'human behaviour' with regards to those people who went there in order to allude to a point that you are not willing to fully elucidate. Perhaps you ought to just come right out with it. Edited April 27, 2016 by snowychap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 The phrase 'basic human nature' does rather suggest that contact-free tribes in the Amazon would intuitively understand Sheffield Wednesday's ticketing system, which is probably a bit of a stretch. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maqroll Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 (edited) 9 hours ago, foreveryoung said: Hmmm, could be opening a can of worms here chap. So it takes the police to stop fans getting in the ground without a ticket, this is true, an a failing by SYP But it doesn't take away the fact it's a criminal offence by the fans, trying to force there way in. That's kind of besides the point though. Of course there was always going to be more fans wanting to get in. And as soon as the police opened the gate to them, they were essentially given tacit approval to do so. Because there was no sound plan to address the probability of an overflow of fans is what allowed the tragedy to happen. Edited April 28, 2016 by maqroll Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodytom Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 2 minutes ago, snowychap said: I am asking you what the **** 'basic human nature' has to do with it? You can't just repeat that you consider it to be basic human nature (or behaviour now) and deem that to be a sufficient explanation or response to the question asking you what deciding to try and attend a ticket event without already possessing a ticket has to do with 'basic human nature'. Well if it's not basic human nature, then Wtf is it? I'm a bit lost at what you're trying to get at. People without tickets shouldn't have been there trying to get in. Simple as. That's not blaming the Liverpool fans. The mistakes were still there in terms of preparation. Or lack of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodytom Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 4 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said: The phrase 'basic human nature' does rather suggest that contact-free tribes in the Amazon would intuitively understand Sheffield Wednesday's ticketing system, which is probably a bit of a stretch. Yeah fair point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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