snowychap Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 10 minutes ago, Woodytom said: if I wanted to blame the liverpool fans, id just say. You have, implicitly, and then explicitly (in the same post) you've tried to claim that you haven't. 13 minutes ago, Woodytom said: damn right disrespectful tbh. Once you start ignoring evidence, claiming that you're ITK and thus what you 'know' is more reliable than all of the evidence gathered throughout all of the inquests and the panel sittings, and you wander off in to the 'no solid info then blandy' territory when talking about numbers of ticketless fans in order to continue with the aspersions you've repeatedly cast throughout your posts in this thread then the content of your posts deserves no respect as it displays nothing but utter contempt for others in this thread and beyond. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodytom Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 2 minutes ago, blandy said: If anyone did ask me I'd tell them it was because I've read the evidence and various transcripts and that's what Duckenfield admitted was the case at the decision point. And I mentioned it because you were talking about the decision to open the gate. All of the inquests have pointed out that the decision to open it was probably the right one under the circumstances, but that a catastrophic lack of judgement, preparation and planning and multiple failures both before and after taking that decision caused the fatalities and injuries. The inquiries have concluded that though the decision was the trigger for the events that followed, the allocation of "blame" is not based on that decision, but on the actions etc. before and after it. I have no issue with you mentioning. I think it's relevant. Some people don't though. They thought I'd mentioned it so as usual jumped on me. I just thought it'd be interesting to see if they questioned it's relevance if they had bothered to read properly and see it was you that mentioned it. Doubt it though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodytom Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 2 minutes ago, snowychap said: Once you start ignoring evidence. Please enlighten me with examples of where I have questioned any of the evidence. I'm really intrigued. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 2 minutes ago, Woodytom said: Please enlighten me with examples of where I have questioned any of the evidence. I'm really intrigued. Sorry, I'm not jumping back on the merry-go-round. You can go back and look at a large number of posts in response to what you have posted (beginning I think with Londonlax's) and read them if you so wish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maqroll Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 Does anyone know the capacity of Leppings Lane at the time and was there ever an estimate of how many people were in the stand and inside the gate tunnel when the crush occurred? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calcifer Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 I wish there was a reverse of the classic 'Homer backing into a bush' gif. I want to leave but yet I can't seem to stop pressing refresh. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted April 28, 2016 Moderator Share Posted April 28, 2016 12 minutes ago, Woodytom said: I never said it did. I told you that you wouldn't find that info when you changed the goalposts stating what you wanted to see. So, you've either not read my posts or you've deliberately posted this to try and prove that I was talking nonsense, when I'm not. There's also a fan who was concerned by the lack of police. Don't highlight that tho as that wouldn't fit your agenda. I find it bizarre that because nobody states it, people find it ridiculous to suggest that a greater police presence would have prevented some of the glaring mistakes the police made. Almost like we're not allowed to use our own initiative. That's not the case. I said there was nothing I knew of that supported the claim you made that a lack of police somehow contributed or caused the problem You told me that "I was not as well read as I thought" and directed me at that point to the panorama programme. But that programme (as to be fair, you said) only showed 2 people saying they were "surprised" there weren't more police visible. It does not support any claim that the police numbers in that location caused or contributed to anything. It didn't support your assertion that more police there would have stopped it all from happening (the gate opening etc.). Nothing does. I have no agenda other than to try and reasonably discuss the actual reality and to try and counter things written by posters on this thread from the start that the fans were somehow to blame. What do you think my agenda is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodytom Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 1 minute ago, snowychap said: Sorry, I'm not jumping back on the merry-go-round. You can go back and look at a large number of posts in response to what you have posted (beginning I think with Londonlax's) and read them if you so wish. I've read them, I didn't ignore them. I said I agreed with them time and time again and that I was unsure why ppl kept posting them as replies, given that I agreed. None of my points have been made in place of the evidence, only in addition. So no you can't give me examples of where I've ignored the evidence. More nonsense from you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LakotaDakota Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 (edited) 18 minutes ago, maqroll said: Does anyone know the capacity of Leppings Lane at the time and was there ever an estimate of how many people were in the stand and inside the gate tunnel when the crush occurred? 10,100 allocation, 7,2oo supposed to be in leppings & 2,900 more on north west corner. insane really as they didn't even reassess the capacity after putting in new barriers & the fenced off pens and it seems that most of the 10,100 ended up in the same place but they had no way of knowing how many people were in each section. "According to John Cutlack, an expert stadium engineer, the seeds of the 1989 disaster were sown 10 years previously when a safety certificate overestimated the capacity of the Leppings Lane standing area at 7,200. He said the true safe figure was in fact 5,425. Pen three, where many Liverpool fans died, could only safely hold 678 fans but on the day of the disaster there were up to 1,430 people inside. The club's engineer, Dr Eastwood, agreed "with hindsight" the total figure of 10,100 - which allowed for an additional 2,900 standing fans in the north-west corner stand - was "too high". In 1981, at the semi-final between Tottenham Hotspur and Wolverhampton Wanderers at Hillsborough, 38 fans were injured in a crush. In a course of events that would be repeated eight years later, police opened Gate C after congestion at the turnstiles. A serious crush developed in the Leppings Lane end and fatalities were "narrowly avoided", according to the HIP report. Two perimeter gates were opened to let some fans escape on to the pitch. Turnstile counters showed that 335 too many fans had been allowed on to the terrace that day. At the time, Sheffield Wednesday FC blamed Tottenham fans for "arriving late" and "rushing to their places", crushing those in front. After the incident, Hillsborough was not chosen to host an FA Cup semi-final for six years. Under the terms of the ground's safety certificate, an Officer Working Party including the council, police, fire service and the club, inspected the ground each year. But the OWP never flagged up that the capacity of the Leppings Lane terrace needed recalculating. When it reviewed the stadium in May 1988, the OWP said the stadium had "no significant defects". Mr Cutlack told the inquests the annual inspections of the ground were missed opportunities to reassess the capacity. The Leppings Lane terrace then underwent some significant alterations, none of which led to a revised safety certificate. On the recommendation of South Yorkshire Police, the club introduced the penning system to "prevent free movement of supporters". Yet proposals to feed fans directly to certain sections of the stand from designated turnstiles, allowing numbers to be monitored, were not acted on "because of anticipated costs to SWFC", the HIP report found. The gradient of the tunnel also significantly breached guidelines for sports grounds. Reinstated as a semi final venue in 1987, Hillsborough hosted the match between Leeds United and Coventry City. Shortly before kick-off, police delayed the match by 15 minutes to ensure that late-arriving fans could be accommodated. One Leeds fan described "a bad crush" in the central pens, the crowd so tightly packed, he was "unable to clap his hands". The 1988 semi-final, also between Liverpool and Nottingham Forest, passed without serious incident although some Liverpool fans and police officers later gave accounts of crushing within the Leppings Lane pens. On this occasions, the tunnel was closed and fans redirected to the side pens. According to the HIP report, Sheffield Wednesday "denied knowledge of any crowd-related concerns arising from the 1987 or 1988 FA Cup semi-finals". It said overcrowding problems at the turnstiles in 1987, and on the terrace in 1988, indicated the inherent crowd safety dangers posed by the ground. The risks were known and "the crush in 1989 was foreseeable", it added. The jury concluded there were too few operating turnstiles, signage to the side pens was inadequate and the stadium design and layout contributed to the crush." Edited April 28, 2016 by LakotaDakota 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodytom Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 1 minute ago, blandy said: It does not support any claim that the police numbers in that location caused or contributed to anything. Is it so bizarre to suggest that it did? Do we need everything spelt out to us by the findings of the inquest. It was mentioned. Clearly relevant and an issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted April 28, 2016 Moderator Share Posted April 28, 2016 3 minutes ago, maqroll said: Does anyone know the capacity of Leppings Lane at the time and was there ever an estimate of how many people were in the stand and inside the gate tunnel when the crush occurred? There's loads of information in the reports on the disaster, maq. Capacity was about 10,000 at the time, slightly over. If you look at the panorama 2013 hillsborough youtube you can see the scale of the problems and get an understanding of the issues. Taylor report pdf This latest inquest report pdf 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodytom Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 2 minutes ago, LakotaDakota said: Capacity was officially 10,100 which is insane but this was never reduced after it had been split into pens and there was no way of knowing how many people were actually in each of the separate pens The liverpool fans had 24k tickets. I assume that's the Leppings lane end and down the side's capacity? Yet when the stands are reletively full bar a couple of areas highlighted by John motson, there are masses of people still outside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maqroll Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 The 80's were tumultuous for English football, wren't they? Hooliganism, The Bradford Fire, Heysel, and Hillsborough. Watching the Bradford fire video is bloody harrowing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted April 28, 2016 Moderator Share Posted April 28, 2016 5 minutes ago, Woodytom said: Do we need everything spelt out to us by the findings of the inquest. It was mentioned. Clearly relevant and an issue. Well, I kind of think being able to read the findings and extensive evidence from an inquest, conducted over a long period of time, in great detail gives me at least a better idea of what the situation is than reading the postings of people on here. You're free to form whatever views you like about things, obviously, and to think the findings of the inquest are wrong and other things are more important. S'up to you. But I think I'll go with the inquest version rather than yours, if it's all the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodytom Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 Just now, blandy said: and to think the findings of the inquest are wrong. I don't think that. Where have I said that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post chrisp65 Posted April 28, 2016 Popular Post Share Posted April 28, 2016 3 minutes ago, Woodytom said: The liverpool fans had 24k tickets. I assume that's the Leppings lane end and down the side's capacity? Yet when the stands are reletively full bar a couple of areas highlighted by John motson, there are masses of people still outside. it's almost as though we'd benefit from some sort of inquest to establish facts and put an end to conjecture 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodytom Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 As for your agenda, I feel that both yourself and snowychap have continually ignored any moment of which I've acknowledge: A. The mistakes of the police B. When I've acknowledged my own failings in posting. Instead, you've constantly picked certain parts of my post and taken them out of context in some attempt to show that I blame the fans which is simply not true. At times, yourself and I have had some decent exchanges and there's been some interesting debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted April 28, 2016 Moderator Share Posted April 28, 2016 3 minutes ago, Woodytom said: I don't think that. Where have I said that? the most recent time was on page 25. I'm not scrolling back further than that. 3 hours ago, Woodytom said: I think that's an issue with the inquest and why the gate opening incident shouldn't be singled out imo. There were many issues by the lack of police imo. First of all, the obvious chaos from the fans coming and not being channeled into an orderly fashion. Secondly they were finding their own ways into the pens thus leaving certain pens half empty. A police presence could have counteracted this. I truly believe it should have never got the stage where it was a case of opening a gate or not. Hence why I don't see that as one of the main issues and why I disagree with it being singled out as a factor. I don't think it's too inconceivable to suggest that a greater police presence and the hillsborough disaster may not have occurred. I can't guarantee that obviously. I think by the time the gate is opened, the chaos and indeed the tragedy is occurring. I really am done now, as it's just arguing for the sake of it. And I have to rest my "agenda". 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodytom Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 2 minutes ago, blandy said: the most recent time was on page 25. I'm not scrolling back further than that. I really am done now, as it's just arguing for the sake of it. And I have to rest my "agenda". That's not saying the findings are wrong though. Just that the gate opening decision doesn't deserve it's own bullet point on the findings. Nowhere will you find me saying the findings are wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodytom Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 9 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: to establish facts and put an end to conjecture Well it's yet to be done about the number of ticketless fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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