chrisp65 Posted July 4, 2016 Share Posted July 4, 2016 10 hours ago, brommy said: I think we should support and demonstrate the advantages of education to those who live in areas that are not directly controlled by Daesh. As the military conflict continues, Daesh are losing control of the higher populated areas (mostly in Syria and Iraq) and gaining some control in the lower populated areas of Libya. The more people that are educated in a non religious context, the less likely they are to take up arms in support of Daesh. It may take decades, but short of rolling over and all becoming Daesh converts or trying to 'bomb them all to hell', neither of which is acceptable and/or practical, I don't see another way forward. The population of arab north Africa is something like 360 million people. The population of Pakistan is 182 million, Bangladesh 150 million. I haven't looked up figures for Afghanistan, Malaysia, Indonesia, Phillippines.... We cannot currently plan and fund worthwhile activity for the few thousand people in our own prisons that have already gone through 16 years of the UK education system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted July 4, 2016 Moderator Share Posted July 4, 2016 1 hour ago, chrisp65 said: The population of arab north Africa is something like 360 million people. The population of Pakistan is 182 million, Bangladesh 150 million. I haven't looked up figures for Afghanistan, Malaysia, Indonesia, Phillippines.... We cannot currently plan and fund worthwhile activity for the few thousand people in our own prisons that have already gone through 16 years of the UK education system. 4 comments on that: 1. We can/could "plan and fund worthwhile activity for the few thousand people in our own prisons", but we choose not to. 2. In the context of abroadia, "we" would be the rich nations, rather than the UK alone (in my ideal). 3. In terms of reaching the billion+ people "we" don't need to reach each and every one of them directly - it's like an upside down pyramid - educate the people who educate the educators who educate the children. 4. Chances are we won't even try to do any of that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brommy Posted July 4, 2016 Share Posted July 4, 2016 3 hours ago, chrisp65 said: The population of arab north Africa is something like 360 million people. The population of Pakistan is 182 million, Bangladesh 150 million. I haven't looked up figures for Afghanistan, Malaysia, Indonesia, Phillippines.... We cannot currently plan and fund worthwhile activity for the few thousand people in our own prisons that have already gone through 16 years of the UK education system. Education is cheaper than warfare. Just 10% of the US and European defence budget would go a long way to educate millions, including, as it has been described, educating the educators. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choffer Posted July 4, 2016 VT Supporter Share Posted July 4, 2016 1 minute ago, brommy said: Education is cheaper than warfare. But nobody makes billions of dollars from Education. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brommy Posted July 4, 2016 Share Posted July 4, 2016 4 minutes ago, choffer said: But nobody makes billions of dollars from Education. Education makes the whole world richer, not just a few dozen large companies. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choffer Posted July 4, 2016 VT Supporter Share Posted July 4, 2016 Just now, brommy said: Education makes the whole world richer, not just a few dozen large companies. I suspect you understood the point I was making Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brommy Posted July 4, 2016 Share Posted July 4, 2016 Just now, choffer said: I suspect you understood the point I was making Indeed. It is time governments across the world stopped pandering to the immediate demands of 'big business' and started thinking of the long term benefits of education in the hope of a more stable world. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
limpid Posted July 4, 2016 Administrator Share Posted July 4, 2016 6 minutes ago, brommy said: Indeed. It is time governments across the world stopped pandering to the immediate demands of 'big business' and started thinking of the long term benefits of education in the hope of a more stable world. We aren't even getting religion out of education in the UK. It's a bit hypocritical to do it in other places. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted July 4, 2016 Moderator Share Posted July 4, 2016 14 minutes ago, limpid said: We aren't even getting religion out of education in the UK. It's a bit hypocritical to do it in other places. Taking the religion out of places that are essentially run under religious system(s) is too big a call. It's not necessary to diminish the ISILs by turning everyone into an atheist. People who know, say that ISIL, Talibans and those kind of groups are not operating according to Islam, which they say is a peaceful religion. So surely it just needs a return to "normal" peaceful adherence. But yeah ultimately get rid of sky fairy imaginary friend dreaming stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted July 4, 2016 Moderator Share Posted July 4, 2016 On 7/3/2016 at 08:59, blandy said: Ultimately, they are not different animals. They are all homo sapiens, I was going to say human beings, but that didn't sound right. Bombs will never defeat an ideology, so to bring the terror to an end at some point there has to be something other than bombs. It's in our nature to look for solutions , to seek to change things to our liking, but this looks insoluble. The only thing really to give encouragement is that universally people want safety, food, water, warmth and peace. Talking, IMO, is not about "us" talking to isis, isis is not primarily "our" problem (though the neo-cons carry plenty of blame) because the impact of isis is on the people who live in the middle east. Maybe the most we should do is talk to the people who could talk to isis leaders, at some point and mostly just keep the **** out of the way. We tend to make things worse. I agree that bombs don't beat ideology but I fail to see how you can negotiate with a group that's aim is to destroy the West, the Western way of life and impart their supposed version of Islam on the world. In terms of what people want, I'd suggest that quite a number of people are less bothered about what most of us want and have very very different desires including those in the next life. Talking to those who can talk to them, that makes more sense and I agree so far we've made things worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted July 4, 2016 Moderator Share Posted July 4, 2016 16 hours ago, villakram said: I hope you do appreciate that the wars we have waged over there have quite a bit to do with the creation of ISIS? Note, the plural there going back 25yrs in terms of direct war and all the way to the 1850s before that. So casting their ideology as something special is a little... errr, I guess I think you're giving them far too much credit. Ideology is that thing that is a starting point, which inevitably encounters its good friend reality. ISIS/Daesh have been acting in an unconstrained manner until recently. Thus, reality was this fuzzy thing that idiots/infidels talk about because god/etc. had deemed it necessary for them to succeed. Now, why were they unconstrained? and who was funding them? The recent change in their fortunes has been brought about by the turning off of the oil/money spigot.... primarily by Russia. We (England/France/USA) watched as huge convoys of oil trucks went about their merry way as they were (are?) useful for our geo-strategic goals, i.e., removing Assad and disrupting the Shia power bloc. Now that they are constrained, ideology and reality will be re-acquainted. Given the large number of former Iraqi military in the ISIS power structure, they have many in their ranks who will be capable of talking. Finally. It's the 4th of July here in USA tomorrow. Where all the freedom and such ideology will be espoused, while in reality... This goes for every social/political/military structure globally. Ruling out talking with ISIS is not a strategy. Yes I'd noticed the impact of the various wars but thanks for checking. As for ISIS ideology, I certainly didn't say it was special I said it was different and it is different it is different to the Taliban and it is different to AQ they may share some of the same tactics and even some of the same beliefs and ideologies but they are not the same, they are fundamentally different. They have been constrained by military action hitting their means of oil production and sale, which kind of suggests military action has had a positive impact. But leaving that aside it sounds like you are either not aware of the completely totalitarian nature of the organisation or you are talking about breakaway factions. Break away factions would not be ISIS. Its kind of the reverse of the IRA and the Real IRA. If we are talking with splinter groups of ISIS we aren't by definition talking with ISIS. My view is it doesn't matter what strategy we have, ISIS don't want to talk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted July 4, 2016 Moderator Share Posted July 4, 2016 1 hour ago, blandy said: Taking the religion out of places that are essentially run under religious system(s) is too big a call. It's not necessary to diminish the ISILs by turning everyone into an atheist. People who know, say that ISIL, Talibans and those kind of groups are not operating according to Islam, which they say is a peaceful religion. So surely it just needs a return to "normal" peaceful adherence. But yeah ultimately get rid of sky fairy imaginary friend dreaming stuff. Completely agree which is why I've always argued that ISIS can only be fully stopped by Islam and Islamic countries rather than the West. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted July 4, 2016 VT Supporter Share Posted July 4, 2016 (edited) As for defeating them... You can try to wipe them out but you'll not get all of them, and the ideas don't go away. You can't talk because fundamentally there isn't a position to negotiate, and neither side has much interest in doing so anyway. You need to engage and pressure the Islamic world to more actively combat the particularly grim elements of their religion. Unfortunately they all hate each other as much as they hate anyone else so that's doomed to failure. At best you're looking at hoping the movement stutters, scatters and can be driven back underground. There's going to need to be some nation building as well - the current situation only occurs because theres a vast tract of land in the Middle East that was in essence no-man's land, and a force was able to occupy it with little effort. Edited July 4, 2016 by Chindie Talking out of my arse 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brommy Posted July 4, 2016 Share Posted July 4, 2016 (edited) 3 hours ago, limpid said: We aren't even getting religion out of education in the UK. It's a bit hypocritical to do it in other places. Most posts are constructed from what people believe is happening or should happen. If it were up to me, I would make all education religion-free from now so there would be no hypocrisy from me. Edited July 4, 2016 by brommy 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villakram Posted July 4, 2016 Share Posted July 4, 2016 3 hours ago, TrentVilla said: Yes I'd noticed the impact of the various wars but thanks for checking. As for ISIS ideology, I certainly didn't say it was special I said it was different and it is different it is different to the Taliban and it is different to AQ they may share some of the same tactics and even some of the same beliefs and ideologies but they are not the same, they are fundamentally different. They have been constrained by military action hitting their means of oil production and sale, which kind of suggests military action has had a positive impact. But leaving that aside it sounds like you are either not aware of the completely totalitarian nature of the organisation or you are talking about breakaway factions. Break away factions would not be ISIS. Its kind of the reverse of the IRA and the Real IRA. If we are talking with splinter groups of ISIS we aren't by definition talking with ISIS. My view is it doesn't matter what strategy we have, ISIS don't want to talk I'm aware of their point of view and ideas on how society should run and who should(not) exist therein. I just don't care about that. I don't view it as important and I think they have been given far to much stature by taking them so seriously. Their worldview is simply not realistic and currently exists purely due to it being allowed to exist.... where allow means that they have the means to exist sans a patron or benefactor providing them with resources. There are many reasons for their existence, primary among them is the idea of throwing off the foreign yoke. Though sorting out which version of nonsense to believe in is also at the top of their agenda. This is changing right now and has been for the past few months. They are running out of cash and their military capabilities are being steadily degraded. It is simply a matter of time until they start talking, or the right leader is removed and a replacement power nexus sees the sustainability of talking. So, basically ISIS are a big mess that has gotten out of control. It is now sort of being sorted out, but you'll note that it's not the Syrian state/Iraq/Iran/Russia who are dragging their feet. So, we kill all the guys wearing ISIS jerseys, but, will this matter, e.g., Iraq, increasingly looks like it needs to fracture into 3 states and it looks like Syria will be partially divided between the Assad and then whatever portion the Kurds are allowed to keep. The Kurds are going to take ages to set up any sort of stable state. Yemen is in bits and pieces and the Israel mess is nowhere close to a solution. Political stability in Saudi is lower now than in a long time, and the strength of the theocratic regime in Iran will be slowly eroded by their increasing wealth... and then you have strongmen like Putin/Cameron /Hollande/Obama/ sticking their noses in. There are many groups who would/do see the benefit of ISIS persisting to bend the final outcome to their advantage, and if not ISIS then some other terrorist group. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted July 4, 2016 Share Posted July 4, 2016 A suicide bomber has detonated outside the Prophet's Mosque in Medina, Saudi Arabia (one of Islam's holiest sites). Apparently he asked some policeman if he could join them for Iftar (breaking fast) then blew himself up. Hard to overstate what a blow this is to Saudi Arabia. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted July 4, 2016 VT Supporter Share Posted July 4, 2016 Saudi had a couple of other bombings today. The one seemed more overtly aimed at Shia community, the other near the US consul. Demons coming home to roost. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villaglint Posted July 4, 2016 Share Posted July 4, 2016 (edited) Lot of learned folks on here so could someone enlighten me as to the logic of going after Islamic sites in such a big way during Ramadan. Edited July 4, 2016 by villaglint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted July 4, 2016 VT Supporter Share Posted July 4, 2016 2 minutes ago, villaglint said: Lot of learned folks on here so could someone enlighten me as to the logic of going after Islamic sites in such a big way during Ramadan. Depends on who is responsible. Assuming it's IS, IS attacks other Muslims that do not stick to their interpretation of their claptrap. Lots of Muslims don't. Saudi has espoused the tract of Islam that has become the basis of IS ideology but mostly as a tool rather than with any conviction (or at least not the conviction IS has developed), hoping to influence the Islamic world in their favour. Obviously that can backfire. Ramadan is a time where people are particularly vulnerable. They don't expect the attack in such a holy time, its a time where lots of Muslims gather and worship particularly keenly, etc etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted July 4, 2016 Share Posted July 4, 2016 50 minutes ago, villaglint said: Lot of learned folks on here so could someone enlighten me as to the logic of going after Islamic sites in such a big way during Ramadan. Shock, fear, symbolism - "look, apostate Saudi regime cannot protect Islam's holiest sites. They cannot protect you. Submit". If you or anyone else wants to get to the core of why the do this stuff read "The Management of Savagery" by Abu Bakr Naji. It's all online and downloadable as a pdf in English. It is literally the blueprint behind everything ISIS has done. Whoever actually wrote it is one sick and very smart puppy. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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