nick76 Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Ignoring the usual petty sarcasm I've asked you on four occasions now to produce a simple stat of Lambert's match record during his tenure with us and on every occasion you have refused. I've asked you to do this because previously you seem very willing to pull a graph out of your back pocket to try and prove that Lambert is doing a good job. One would assume that one of the most telling factors whether Lambert is doing a good job or not is our overall match record under him, yet as I say, you refuse to show this. But indignantly demanding that someone you're disagreeing with post the particular stat that supports your own position isn't petty? If you've got an argument to make, make it yourself. The basic disagreement between the "Lambert apologists" and the "Negative Nellies" mostly boils down to their interpretation of what rebuilding entails and what's the best approach in the long run. It's clear Lerner, Lambert and Faulkner all agreed it's best to start from scratch with young (mostly), hungry, passionate players on similar (mostly) wages to bond and get the high-earners out the door. This approach required spreading the transfer kitty and salary funds among more players, with the obvious sacrifice in quality and greater risk of signing flops. It also means risking relegation for a season or two until ther funds can go to quality vs. quantity. But if the plan works, the club is in a good position financially and can start rewarding the players who did well with better contracts and replacing those who didn't with better quality at higher wages without blowing the wages out of the water again. If you accept this approach, then the club's record since Lambert took over isn't necessarily the most important measure of success at this point in the project, as long as the club stays up. At the moment, you could argue that Lambert has been successful, if only by a margin, against this measure. If the rest of the plan plays out (relegation is avoided, money from clearing out dead wood is made available for better players in the summer), next season is the real test of both Lamber and Lerner. Football style and results need to be significantly better and showing signs of continuous improvement. If you don't agree that a total clearout was necessary, as a number of you don't, then of course it's hard to view Lambert as being successful. As you've argued, the transfer funds could have gone to fewer players of higher quality and results likely would have been better to date. The question is whether the club would be better posed for a resurgence after this season under this scenario. You clearly believe so. Team togetherness and the ability to build up from a good foundation, both football-wise and financially, would probably not be as good but maybe results would be similar without having had to go through 2 seasons of relagation risk and unattactive football. We may never know. Lambert was clearly brought on board to do the job in a particular way. Slate him for choosing to go along with the plan if you want, or slate Lerner for hiring a manager to take this approach. But given the job he was asked to do, I don't think Lambert's been too bad. Thanks for the advice but as regular readers of this forum would tell you I have continually put my argument forward and that argument is not exclusive to just the above stat. If however you feel that asking the said poster to be balanced in his argument by producing a stat showing Lambert's overall record with us is petty please avail me of another stat showing Lambert's overall performance which in your opinion, isn't? Secondly it isn't clear at all that the Chief Executive, Chairman and manager made a collective decision on a policy of youth. What is clear though is that the Chief Executive has already stated that Lambert was given a budget and it was up to him how he spent it. That is further substantiated by who we've been linked to and who we've signed this season. The fact is that with one relegation battle behind us under Lambert and losing six out of the last eight this season Lambert has realised that his youth policy has failed and is now targeting more Premiership experience which he should have done from the start. Several posters on this site including myself stated that under this policy we would struggle and I don't think to date we have been proven wrong.playing poor football I agree, looking over a short period of games looks bad but struggling we aren't. Half way through the season which is a fair reflection of us because we had played each team once and we were 11th in the league and that's with missing Vlaar and Benteke for major parts of it. That's improvement on last season and 11th isn't struggling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morpheus Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 In Lambert we trust! Did you trust Mcleish? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PandaMac Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 So.....how bout them transf...eh forget it. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVFCRAMTIN Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Is there any AM besides Kiyotake and Hoolahan that are our targets? A exciting signing would lift us fans and the whole squad! Also somethings telling me that Holt is going to have a lot of fun in the air battles with Skrtel today Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papillon Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 It also means risking relegation for a season or two until ther funds can go to quality vs. quantity. I find this bit very interesting. If you thought we'd be in a relegation battle last year you were laughed at and mocked. Now its obvious we were risking it for a couple of years. Don't remember many posts last year saying another relegation battle was expected this year. It just seems no matter what happens a certain group will just change their expectations in order to support the manager. We're not in a relegation battle this year. Not yet anyway. I would beg to differ! We are 11th, which in isolation is very good. 11th come May would be a success, because it means we grind out results with a very poor team playing very poor football. However, we are 5 points from 18th and 6 points from 20th. Being 11th doesn't mean we are much better than the others, it just means a couple of results have gone our way and the dogfight is between 11 teams. Hull are above us on the same amount of points, I would certainly say they are just as much in the fight for relegation with Sunderland, Norwich, Fulham and the rest. Crystal Palace are pretty poor, they will most likely go down. But then you have Sunderland (many good players), Cardiff (new manager and hope) etc, teams that can and will grab points over the next months. It's a different spectacle this year, many of the teams at the bottom have match-winners and stand-out players unlike many of the teams fighting for relegation in the past. Johnson (Sunderland) scored a hat-trick last week, West Ham have Andy Carroll back - a player that can galvanize their approach to football, Swansea have many good players, Fulham have some good players (but a poor manager I think) and so forth. The most important thing of course is that we are 11th and above the others. You always want to be on top, but just imagine if we were in 18th and looking at let's say Norwich in 11th with 5 points more than us. All of us would have said we could catch that easily, and that's exactly what they are saying as well. We are in a battle for relegation, and after today we might be closer. Away to Liverpool; whilst Sunderland, Crystal Palace, Norwich, West Ham, Swansea and West Bromwich have games at home. Not all of them will win of course, but team 19 and 20 might be only 3 points behind us after this weekend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morpheus Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Ignoring the usual petty sarcasm I've asked you on four occasions now to produce a simple stat of Lambert's match record during his tenure with us and on every occasion you have refused. I've asked you to do this because previously you seem very willing to pull a graph out of your back pocket to try and prove that Lambert is doing a good job. One would assume that one of the most telling factors whether Lambert is doing a good job or not is our overall match record under him, yet as I say, you refuse to show this. But indignantly demanding that someone you're disagreeing with post the particular stat that supports your own position isn't petty? If you've got an argument to make, make it yourself. The basic disagreement between the "Lambert apologists" and the "Negative Nellies" mostly boils down to their interpretation of what rebuilding entails and what's the best approach in the long run. It's clear Lerner, Lambert and Faulkner all agreed it's best to start from scratch with young (mostly), hungry, passionate players on similar (mostly) wages to bond and get the high-earners out the door. This approach required spreading the transfer kitty and salary funds among more players, with the obvious sacrifice in quality and greater risk of signing flops. It also means risking relegation for a season or two until ther funds can go to quality vs. quantity. But if the plan works, the club is in a good position financially and can start rewarding the players who did well with better contracts and replacing those who didn't with better quality at higher wages without blowing the wages out of the water again. If you accept this approach, then the club's record since Lambert took over isn't necessarily the most important measure of success at this point in the project, as long as the club stays up. At the moment, you could argue that Lambert has been successful, if only by a margin, against this measure. If the rest of the plan plays out (relegation is avoided, money from clearing out dead wood is made available for better players in the summer), next season is the real test of both Lamber and Lerner. Football style and results need to be significantly better and showing signs of continuous improvement. If you don't agree that a total clearout was necessary, as a number of you don't, then of course it's hard to view Lambert as being successful. As you've argued, the transfer funds could have gone to fewer players of higher quality and results likely would have been better to date. The question is whether the club would be better posed for a resurgence after this season under this scenario. You clearly believe so. Team togetherness and the ability to build up from a good foundation, both football-wise and financially, would probably not be as good but maybe results would be similar without having had to go through 2 seasons of relagation risk and unattactive football. We may never know. Lambert was clearly brought on board to do the job in a particular way. Slate him for choosing to go along with the plan if you want, or slate Lerner for hiring a manager to take this approach. But given the job he was asked to do, I don't think Lambert's been too bad. Thanks for the advice but as regular readers of this forum would tell you I have continually put my argument forward and that argument is not exclusive to just the above stat. If however you feel that asking the said poster to be balanced in his argument by producing a stat showing Lambert's overall record with us is petty please avail me of another stat showing Lambert's overall performance which in your opinion, isn't? Secondly it isn't clear at all that the Chief Executive, Chairman and manager made a collective decision on a policy of youth. What is clear though is that the Chief Executive has already stated that Lambert was given a budget and it was up to him how he spent it. That is further substantiated by who we've been linked to and who we've signed this season. The fact is that with one relegation battle behind us under Lambert and losing six out of the last eight this season Lambert has realised that his youth policy has failed and is now targeting more Premiership experience which he should have done from the start. Several posters on this site including myself stated that under this policy we would struggle and I don't think to date we have been proven wrong.playing poor football I agree, looking over a short period of games looks bad but struggling we aren't. Half way through the season which is a fair reflection of us because we had played each team once and we were 11th in the league and that's with missing Vlaar and Benteke for major parts of it. That's improvement on last season and 11th isn't struggling. Yep 11th in the table but we've lost six out of the last eight which would suggest otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post romavillan Posted January 18, 2014 VT Supporter Popular Post Share Posted January 18, 2014 This is the transfer thread, not the Lambert thread, the Lerner thread, the Relegation thread or the bitch and moan internet sh*t fight thread. Anyone got any transfer news? 14 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electric Avenue Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 In transfer news today , Someone somewhere will sign somebody today. Weather, there will be weather everywhere today , sport there were results in all games today. And now the headlines. Goodnight. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArteSuave Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 This is the transfer thread, not the Lambert thread, the Lerner thread, the Relegation thread or the bitch and moan internet sh*t fight thread.Anyone got any transfer news?Yeah I agree, Lambert out! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Marley the Bognor Villan Posted January 18, 2014 Popular Post Share Posted January 18, 2014 In Lambert we trust! Did you trust Mcleish? Nope, didnt see any kind of plan from him. PL has a long term plan which has already seen him reduce the wage bill dramatically. We are no longer paying ridiculous wages for lazy players. We have young hungry players that want to play for the team. Ok, some of them are not good enough but that is trial and error, you dont know if a player is good enough until you try him but at least they are not expensive lessons. He will get there in the end, once he completes his jigsaw but he needs our support to do it. How is he supposed to attract players to the club if they sense unrest due to the fans booing and moaning? The team we have now would beat the team we had two years ago simply by the effort the put in and the fact that they dont give up even when 2 goals behind. the difference is, this team is a lot cheaper and not yet complete. Once we get to a transfer window whilst still not performing and PL says he doesnt need to strengthen anywhere we can moan away! 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morpheus Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 The so called plan isn't working though is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmygreaves Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 The so called plan isn't working though is it? But it is..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Isn't "the plan" just the restrictions set by Lerner that Lambert is working under? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Djemba_Villan Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 THIS IS THE TRANSFER THREAD!! Please, please, take your PL bickering to the appropriate thread and leave his thread to those of us who kind of just want to get on with supporting the club and don't want to sit reading a political debate between people who love their own voices. It's depressing. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
honest_bertie Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Yawn yawn yawn.... Same old arguments, different thread. Please someone post some transfer speculation, even some fake twitter stuff, its more interesting than all this you said this prove that bull. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Djemba_Villan Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 THIS IS THE TRANSFER THREAD!! Please, please, take your PL bickering to the appropriate thread and leave his thread to those of us who kind of just want to get on with supporting the club and don't want to sit reading a political debate between people who love their own voices. It's depressing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AshVilla Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Why would there be any transfer news today? Someone tell me otherwise but i can't remember the last time we signed a player on a matchday? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Yeah sorry, i really hope we focus on the midfield now. DCM+ creative midfielder not necessarily a ACM. £10-15m shuould do it, no biggie... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHV Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Is there any AM besides Kiyotake and Hoolahan that are our targets? A exciting signing would lift us fans and the whole squad! Also somethings telling me that Holt is going to have a lot of fun in the air battles with Skrtel today Im not a fan of hoolahan and if im honest kiyotake has never impressed me when I have seen him in the bundesliga. I have only seen him about 5 times. How come he is rated so highly on here?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
limvillian Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 (edited) Why would there be any transfer news today? Someone tell me otherwise but i can't remember the last time we signed a player on a matchday? We may not actually sign someone today but for example the Grant Holt news broke first during the middle of the Arsenal game and was confimed by Lambert in the post game interview. Edited January 18, 2014 by limvillian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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