Rugeley Villa Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 9 minutes ago, jim said: Staying with the outlaws in France. Watch they don't try and pack Calais in your suitcase and have you bring it over here. we are full 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 10 minutes ago, snowychap said: Who is 'crippling' building sites? Rugeley has just described a situation (that you have confirmed) where individuals are at risk simply because the firm they work for or subcontract underneath has all the power and can bin them if they complain or, worse, just ask for simple H&S things to be followed (like actual injuries and risks being dealt with). In order to address that power imblance, there are two options: increased legislation (which would have to be administered by an already overloaded and impotent HSE) or more power to the workforce (most likely to be achieved by some form of unionisation). Perhaps an increase in union representation and power might redress the imbalance rather than necessarily kibosh the working mentality on the site. Perhaps it's the thinking that it will immediately lead to a stand around and stop working mentality that leads to the situation where workers are taken advantage of by employers and just have to shut up because they'll otherwise be blacklisted (I though there were court cases trying to address that crap going through currently?). The problem is money peobably 75% of the guys on site work on a measure, not an hourly rate, they can earn good money, say for example a brickie on a good run of facing bricks on a sunny day, if he has ropey scaffolding, complains and stops himself working whilst it's rectified for 4 hours he'll be paid £15-20 for those 4 hours, £60-80, he'll have to put it on a day work sheet and send it in to me, I'll then question it (because I question every day work sheet...) that's £60-80 that I'll either charge the scaffolder, who will moan like ****, or have to take out of my companies margin, so my boss will moan like ****, bigger national contractors will use everything they can within their contract not to pay it at all and it's safe to say they can do it too, you then risk stopping works and causing delay, my current site is £2k a day for delays... if he doesn't complain he will get paid, if he carries on with the measured work he'll earn more than £60-80 and there's no contractual risk of delay, cash is king and there's a good chunk of it out there so a lot of people keep their heads down and put up with it, most of the guys don't know or simply don't care about their own rights, be it health and safety at work, construction act or the working rule agreement (every Christmas I have to explain the working rule agreement to guys on site) they care about money Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 (edited) 6 minutes ago, villa4europe said: they care about money Where is the money when they're laid off for six weeks because of the lack of safety precautions and that they've buggered their back/leg? Edit: The problem isn't money. The problem is that people make excuses for the status quo. I'm not about to put that upon the people who, in this scenario, have the least power (i.e. the 'guys on site'). Edit 2: I do appreciate your explanation of the difficulties involved, btw. Edited August 31, 2016 by snowychap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted August 31, 2016 VT Supporter Share Posted August 31, 2016 1 hour ago, Rugeley Villa said: I'm a Tory I don't do unions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 The % of accidents is actually surprisingly low, the big one was heights which they've pretty much stomped out now, I think I've been on around 15 sites in the last 5 years and had 1 reportable accident, which I think again was stepping on a scaffold pole and rolling their ankle, probably a mixture of "it won't happen to me" and the belief that you'll be protected, pretty sure the bloke injured on my site when down the insurance route rather than try to claim against us route, it wouldn't have been a claim against us anyway he'd have had to claimed against the subcontractor who caused it anyway which I can imagine is another minefield, everyone on our sites have to have £2m cover in case they injure someone else i did work for a main contractor who had an issue with a hoarding panel being lifted by the wind and hitting a member of the public... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xann Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 50 minutes ago, Rugeley Villa said: This 100%. our firm have stopped paying day work out to subbys because they don't receive it off the builder. The one job we did we waved goodbye to 4K in extras just so they would pay up for the job, it was either write it off or you wait another 3 months to get your money and we don't use you again. And yeah if something ain't right you just crack on with it mostly. Don't move without a PO, no matter how loud they yell. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 17 minutes ago, villa4europe said: The % of accidents is actually surprisingly low, the big one was heights which they've pretty much stomped out now, I think I've been on around 15 sites in the last 5 years and had 1 reportable accident... Rugeley, in two posts, has suggested that his anecdotal experience of 'accidents' is considerably different to this, i.e. a couple in a couple of months (one involving him and one involving someone else). Perhaps he has been terribly unlucky but, either way, you have both confirmed that construction companies (be they small or large firms) flout the law and threaten workers in such a way that they (both the middle management doing the actual threatening and the upper echelons who make the cash out of being the real words removed) use their power to **** other people over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leemond2008 Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 1 hour ago, snowychap said: Btw, Tories absolutely do do unions. They just don't do unions for the likes of you. Ha, he said do do 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 Sounded like ruge works in the bandit country also known as housing, that's where the dregs of the industry are seriously though it's called house chucking for a reason and it's not necessarily to **** people over, site managers are a mixed bag, always under immense pressure but everyone on a building site has CSCS cards and basic knowledge of health and safety, on a small site it'll be 50 blokes a day at its peak, every single one of them has the power to identify and report unsafe working conditions, I've got a pad to write and issue unsafe working notices...how many of them do you think I've issued? It's everyone's responsibility, not just the main contractors and the site manager Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 (edited) 14 minutes ago, villa4europe said: Sounded like ruge works in the bandit country also known as housing, that's where the dregs of the industry are seriously though it's called house chucking for a reason and it's not necessarily to **** people over, site managers are a mixed bag, always under immense pressure but everyone on a building site has CSCS cards and basic knowledge of health and safety, on a small site it'll be 50 blokes a day at its peak, every single one of them has the power to identify and report unsafe working conditions, I've got a pad to write and issue unsafe working notices...how many of them do you think I've issued? It's everyone's responsibility, not just the main contractors and the site manager When the people at the arse end of the industry are 'working on a measure' (your words) and they're under the threat of not being paid for x amount of months or not being used again if they've used their 'power to identify and report unsafe working conditions', then it's beyond poor to make the claim that it's 'everyone's responsibility' and thus throw the responsibility back on to the shoulders of the people at the coal face. Edit: Btw, I'm not suggesting that this way of working and treating workers is something unique to construction (whether that be house chucking or anything else). I think it's a very standard approach when you have multiple layers of contracts with A subcontracting to B subcontracting to C subcontracting to X, Y and Z. It's also the modern way of removing responsibility from where it should actually fall and so no one takes or accepts responsibility: it gets lost, as you suggest in your post, in the poorly laid scaffolding planks of the industrial hierarchy. Edited August 31, 2016 by snowychap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 And yet everyone's responsibility is the face of the industry, hence why we all have CSCS cards, inductions, RAMS, various tickets, tool box talks, considerate constructors, there are tons of initiatives to try and improve it Its no different from pretty much any industry, you can't idiot proof it, we probably do more than most in an attempt to do so but if s scaffolder cuts a corner in an attempt to earn more money quicker and as a result ruge cuts his head...if ruge made a claim the RAMS would be out and the highlighter pen put through the line where it says he'll have a helmet on the amount of hoops you have to jump through before starting on a site and the amount of paperwork in place won't stop someone from putting a pair of step ladders on a set of stairs the guys don't have to work on a measure, they can work 10 hours and earn £100-150 a day if they want, or they can work on a measure and work whatever hours they feel like knowing they've made the day pay...that's why you don't see anyone on a building site on a Friday afternoon, everyone on a measure has earnt their money for the week and gone home, you should earn more on a measure that's the nature of the beast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 6 minutes ago, villa4europe said: And yet everyone's responsibility is the face of the industry, hence why we all have CSCS cards, inductions, RAMS, various tickets, tool box talks, considerate constructors, there are tons of initiatives to try and improve it Its no different from pretty much any industry, you can't idiot proof it, we probably do more than most in an attempt to do so but if s scaffolder cuts a corner in an attempt to earn more money quicker and as a result ruge cuts his head...if ruge made a claim the RAMS would be out and the highlighter pen put through the line where it says he'll have a helmet on the amount of hoops you have to jump through before starting on a site and the amount of paperwork in place won't stop someone from putting a pair of step ladders on a set of stairs the guys don't have to work on a measure, they can work 10 hours and earn £100-150 a day if they want, or they can work on a measure and work whatever hours they feel like knowing they've made the day pay...that's why you don't see anyone on a building site on a Friday afternoon, everyone on a measure has earnt their money for the week and gone home, you should earn more on a measure that's the nature of the beast I commend you again for the clarity of your reportage and your dedication to your industry. None of it does anything to change what has already been said about accidents happening because of lax attitudes to existing legislation or how people are directed not to report incidents for fear of losing their jobs or losing their pay. Of course idiocy like putting 'a pair of step ladders on a set of stairs' happens. That has nothing to do with flouting safety precautions and, when incidents happen, routinely requiring (through intimidation) subcontractors to fail to complete the paperwork that is their responsibility for fear of losing out on money already owed or contracts potentially offered in the future. for example. Or even for people to turn a blind eye when potential issues may occur for the same fears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PriceyDownunder Posted September 1, 2016 Share Posted September 1, 2016 2 hours ago, leemond2008 said: Ha, he said do do This is a recurring point of humour in our household... Oh, and btw, so did you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rugeley Villa Posted September 1, 2016 Share Posted September 1, 2016 Cscs cards are pointless. Just another money maker. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MakemineVanilla Posted September 1, 2016 Share Posted September 1, 2016 12 hours ago, snowychap said: Twas ever thus, I guess. I repeat that it's a disgrace. You have my sympathy. You need to band together somehow - some sort of union, perhaps? 12 hours ago, Rugeley Villa said: I need a union like I need a hole in the head! Fixed! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted September 1, 2016 Share Posted September 1, 2016 2 hours ago, Rugeley Villa said: Cscs cards are pointless. Just another money maker. I have a white card. This tells me and the admin people at CSCS that I am academically qualified to degree level. This also helps warn the guys on site that whilst I might be academically qualified, I've never actually personally tried to build, clean or maintain anything in the way I've drawn it. I am also entitled to biscuits, should there be a site meeting. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rugeley Villa Posted September 1, 2016 Share Posted September 1, 2016 I thought all this Burkini nonsense in France was a hoax? Yet there is uproar from some corners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharkyvilla Posted September 1, 2016 Share Posted September 1, 2016 I just got a slightly shit haircut. Not really bad, just a bit worse than it normally looks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rugeley Villa Posted September 1, 2016 Share Posted September 1, 2016 1 minute ago, sharkyvilla said: I just got a slightly shit haircut. Not really bad, just a bit worse than it normally looks. I remember trying to get a Liam Gallagher haircut years ago. It was bloody dreadful and my gran sent me back to get it sorted, free of charge of course. I was mad fer it back then. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post villa4europe Posted September 1, 2016 Popular Post Share Posted September 1, 2016 50 minutes ago, sharkyvilla said: I just got a slightly shit haircut. Not really bad, just a bit worse than it normally looks. as in a british problem haircut? the one where they show you the mirror and you meekly say "thats great cheers mate" knowing full well it looks shite 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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