Current affairs Serious incident in Woolwich

[coda]

Sickened but not at all surprised by this, it's been coming for while. As I recall at least two plots by radical muslims to abduct and behead a British soldier have been disrupted in the last few years. Both in the Midlands too.

 

One was in Sparkhill about a mile from where I grew up. The target was a muslim in the army. A colleague of mine went to school with some of the perpetrators.

[snowychap]

He had urged people at the meeting to go to Syria to fight, he said.

For which (of the) side(s), I wonder?

[mjmooney]

First off, clearly these guys are psychotic; they would be doing this shit even if they didn't have the whole Islam schtick as an excuse. But it does provide them with an easy handle to get their fifteen minutes of fame. As it does for the psychos in the EDL.

 

Ironically, there is a serious point behind it all: their glib comment about how this sort of thing is happening every day in "their" countries is probably true. I'd rather live in London than in Baghdad, or Damascus, or Mogadishu, or Ramala, or [insert lawless city here]. And I don't doubt that atrocities have been carried out by British, European and American troops - they have their share of psychos in the ranks, and are tooled up to indulge their own fantasies.

 

The question is: do you want to make things better, or make things worse?

 

Nelson Mandela had the nous to see that vigilante revenge - even on the actual perpetrators - doesn't work; it just perpetuates the cycle of violence to the point where everybody loses. There can be no winners.

 

And "revenge" on people who aren't even directly involved, but merely taken to be guilty by association, is even more damaging.

 

But of course, they aren't trying to make things better at all. The Muslim fundies have the same millennial mindset as the Christian fundies who just can't wait for Armageddon, and will actively do crazy things in an attempt to bring it about as soon as possible.

 

It's a philosophy that has the perfect appeal to the psychotic.

 

There is no easy solution - stringing them up by the balls may be tempting, but all it does is ratchet up the stakes.

 

In the face of all this shit, be good, be kind - and put your faith in education. It's going to be a long haul.

[Houlston]

First off, clearly these guys are psychotic; they would be doing this shit even if they didn't have the whole Islam schtick as an excuse. 

They may well be psychotic, but you can't say they would be doing this sort of thing anyway.

[PaulC]

I'm not sure I agree that these muslim extremists would be killers without a cause . I found the whole thing too difficult to watch.  Totally sickening!

[mjmooney]

 

First off, clearly these guys are psychotic; they would be doing this shit even if they didn't have the whole Islam schtick as an excuse. 

They may well be psychotic, but you can't say they would be doing this sort of thing anyway.

 

 

Yes I can - I just did. 

 

Maybe not in that exact, ritualised way, but they'd be in a gang, drug pushing, pimping, whatever. There are plenty of sink estate kids who go that way - but they don't end up killing people. But some do. Whether the gang chooses them, or they choose it, they **** up other peoples' live with insane violence.

Edited May 23, 2013 by mjmooney

[Houlston]

 

 

First off, clearly these guys are psychotic; they would be doing this shit even if they didn't have the whole Islam schtick as an excuse. 

They may well be psychotic, but you can't say they would be doing this sort of thing anyway.

 

 

Yes I can - I just did. 

 

Maybe not in that exact, ritualised way, but they'd be in a gang, drug pushing, pimping, whatever. There are plenty of sink estate kids who go that way - but they don't end up killing people. But some do. Whether the gang chooses them, or they choose it, they **** up other peoples' live with insane violence.

 

True, but what happened yesterday is surely more extreme than falling into a gang culture, pimping etc. 

[tonyh29]

I won't go into Mandela  but I agree with the rest of your post Mike

 

If it's within someone's psyche to do these things , chances are they will do it  ..  Maybe Islam is their justification but I seriously doubt it is the cause

[mjmooney]

 

 

 

First off, clearly these guys are psychotic; they would be doing this shit even if they didn't have the whole Islam schtick as an excuse. 

They may well be psychotic, but you can't say they would be doing this sort of thing anyway.

 

 

Yes I can - I just did. 

 

Maybe not in that exact, ritualised way, but they'd be in a gang, drug pushing, pimping, whatever. There are plenty of sink estate kids who go that way - but they don't end up killing people. But some do. Whether the gang chooses them, or they choose it, they **** up other peoples' live with insane violence.

 

True, but what happened yesterday is surely more extreme than falling into a gang culture, pimping etc. 

 

 

Is it? A man was hacked to death with a machete. It happens in gangland. But it doesn't get the same high profile, because the media can't link it with "the war on terror".

 

My point is that Jihadism is a welcoming home for those who have psychopathic tendencies. I would argue that without such mental issues, no human is capable of doing that sort of thing in a cold-blooded way.

[mjmooney]

I won't go into Mandela  but I agree with the rest of your post Mike

 

Yeah, I knew the Mandela reference would get a response. But I'm not saying he's a saint - any more or less than Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness. The point is that some people (whatever their own guilt of innocence) eventually recognise that there is no advantage in perpetuating the cycle of violence, and they break it. Some never do.

[LondonLax]

Yes incedents like that are not all that rare but when it's one gang kid stabbing another gang kid 40-50 times it doesn't make front page news.

[peterms]

My point is that Jihadism is a welcoming home for those who have psychopathic tendencies. I would argue that without such mental issues, no human is capable of doing that sort of thing in a cold-blooded way.

Sounds circular, Mike.  If they do it, you see it as evidence of the psychopathic tendencies you say are necessary to do it...

[Keyblade]

What sane human being hacks someone's head off with a machete? What rationally thinking person attacks someone who seems to be a soldier as revenge for something that  may or may not have happened in a far away country? Even the looniest of extremists wouldn't even go that far.

[mjmooney]

 

My point is that Jihadism is a welcoming home for those who have psychopathic tendencies. I would argue that without such mental issues, no human is capable of doing that sort of thing in a cold-blooded way.

Sounds circular, Mike.  If they do it, you see it as evidence of the psychopathic tendencies you say are necessary to do it...

 

 

In a nutshell, yes. Some people like violence, and will find ways to indulge it. I'd call it a form of insanity - but human history rather depressingly suggests that it's a pretty common one.

[peterms]

Boris was on the radio telling us that it was nothing to do with Islam and nothing to do with foreign policy, it's just something inside the heads of the perpetrators.

 

That seems so obviously wrong, I can't believe he really thinks that.  He surely doesn't believe it was a random attack that could have been done to anyone, just the first person they came across.  Perhaps he's saying what he thinks will calm the situation.

[LondonLax]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/22/woolwich-first-person-account?mobile-redirect=false

Fair play to her. That takes some balls.

[djamfisher]

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=155491234629976&set=vb.167706413307232&type=2&theater&refid=52

 

http://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=171331263031427&id=167706413307232&refsrc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fphoto.php&_rdr

 

Not sure how some people will take me sharing this,but found it shocking how many people are in the rally, and the views of so many. THe government, and the leaders of the muslim community really need to come together, and do more than is already being done. Not having a pop at muslims, but believe there is a clear problem amongst a minority of islamists and not enough is being done so far.

Edited May 23, 2013 by djamfisher

[mjmooney]

Boris was on the radio telling us that it was nothing to do with Islam and nothing to do with foreign policy, it's just something inside the heads of the perpetrators.

 

That seems so obviously wrong, I can't believe he really thinks that.  He surely doesn't believe it was a random attack that could have been done to anyone, just the first person they came across.  Perhaps he's saying what he thinks will calm the situation.

 

Semantics. You and Boris are both right. Of course it was "to do with" Islam in the sense that a hooligan stabbing is "to do with" football - it's the environment in which the crime is committed, and it has to be taken into consideration. You lot must know by now that I'd love to see the human race grow out of the divisive and superstitious nonsense that is religion. But we would still have to address the issue of unhinged and bloodthirsty young men, who would simply find another reason to do what they do.

[Eames]

Boris was on the radio telling us that it was nothing to do with Islam and nothing to do with foreign policy, it's just something inside the heads of the perpetrators.

 

That seems so obviously wrong, I can't believe he really thinks that.  He surely doesn't believe it was a random attack that could have been done to anyone, just the first person they came across.  Perhaps he's saying what he thinks will calm the situation.

I think the Mayor of London trying to disuade knobheads in the EDL from smashing up Mosques can only be a positive step.  

 

This clearly is not terrorism - its murder. Naturally it suits some agendas if it is called terror (special trials, belmarsh, no parole, full life terms) but I saw two nutters - not two terrorists. 

[peterms]

 

 

My point is that Jihadism is a welcoming home for those who have psychopathic tendencies. I would argue that without such mental issues, no human is capable of doing that sort of thing in a cold-blooded way.

Sounds circular, Mike.  If they do it, you see it as evidence of the psychopathic tendencies you say are necessary to do it...

 

 

In a nutshell, yes. Some people like violence, and will find ways to indulge it. I'd call it a form of insanity - but human history rather depressingly suggests that it's a pretty common one.

 

 

In the case of, say, some of the people involved in IRA activities like drug dealing and bank robbing, kneecapping and so on, I think it's highly likely that they would have been involved in other forms of violence if these forms of violence, acceptable and even respected within a very small group, hadn't presented themselves.  Quite possibly they have a history of other acts of violence.  But there are others who get involved in acts of violence for a political or ideological reason who don't have previous histories of violence.  Would they have sought out other ways of being violent if the particular issue wasn't there?  Why hadn't they already done so?