Sport Formula One - 2013

[BOF]

Rosberg got a reprimand. The result stands.

[Rodders]

Cant wait to watch this in full later but they have to sort those tyres out pdq.

[BOF]

Horrible race demonstrating most of the things currently wrong in F1. Not good enough lads. Sort it out.

Not sure what you're alluding to? exciting from start to finish, what was horrible?

It's the wrong kind of excitement. I don't want to watch tyres exploding because a sport has become an exercise in tyre management rather than an exercise in getting to the chequered flag as fast your car can possibly get you there. I don't want to watch DRS where you coast past someone with the push of a button because the design rules have been written in such a way as to make real overtaking so difficult to do. It's not good enough to have excitement for excitements sake. Why not put archers on the start-finish straight who try and take the drivers' heads off as they go past. That'd be exciting too wouldn't it? And it'd also be the same kind of pandering to the fair-weather casual F1 fan that the FIA have clearly decided is a very important kind of fan. The sport is being dumbed down. Even in the technical side of things stuff gets banned for being too clever far too frequently.

In a way today was a culmination of the FIA's efforts. We got the perfect synergy of all the idiot rules resulting in an ostensibly 'exciting' race where the 3rd fastest car won the race thanks to Lewis' tyre blowout and Vettel's transmission.

[OutByEaster?]

Vettel didn't win, I am happy. I actually want Vettel to lose more than I want anything else in F1. Its sad I know, but it's very true. If his transmission hadn't gone, I'd have turned over to the TdF.

[CardiffGreens]

Thought it was garbage today, considering the bruhaha that came about after Indianapolis in '05 it was ludricrous to continue that race - couldn't believe there wasn't a red flag to end it all. 

 

It's almost as if the FIA are longing for the days of the 70's and get someone killed racing - to keep that race/lottery going for the full distance after the events of last week as well is just mind boggling.  But then again this is motorsport run by a prat in a pink suit who suggested that sprinkers would be a great addition.

 

As it is, F1 can do one this season - don't think I've been so unmotivated to watch races as I have been this year.

[Genie]

Horrible race demonstrating most of the things currently wrong in F1. Not good enough lads. Sort it out.

Not sure what you're alluding to? exciting from start to finish, what was horrible?

It's the wrong kind of excitement. I don't want to watch tyres exploding because a sport has become an exercise in tyre management rather than an exercise in getting to the chequered flag as fast your car can possibly get you there. I don't want to watch DRS where you coast past someone with the push of a button because the design rules have been written in such a way as to make real overtaking so difficult to do. It's not good enough to have excitement for excitements sake. Why not put archers on the start-finish straight who try and take the drivers' heads off as they go past. That'd be exciting too wouldn't it? And it'd also be the same kind of pandering to the fair-weather casual F1 fan that the FIA have clearly decided is a very important kind of fan. The sport is being dumbed down. Even in the technical side of things stuff gets banned for being too clever far too frequently.

In a way today was a culmination of the FIA's efforts. We got the perfect synergy of all the idiot rules resulting in an ostensibly 'exciting' race where the 3rd fastest car won the race thanks to Lewis' tyre blowout and Vettel's transmission.

I have to say Bri, I do see one or two of your points slightly differently.

I don't think anybody expected to see exploding tyres as it was a once in a lifetime race from that perspective. A facinating turn of events. I don't see any link what so ever between tyre management and these incidents. There was either a manufacturing defect in the parts or, as is being reported, a 'razor sharp' kerb. A one off.

Ref DRS this was brought in directly to avoid the events such as Alonso getting stuck for the entire race behind a slower car in Abu Dhabi. Like footballers, drivers are much better now than they were 20 or 30 years ago. It is possible to be in a slower car and hold a position so DRS avoids these frustrating hold ups. Of course, there are places where passing has become to easy but it is exciting none the less and the lesser of 2 evils.

What is wrong with the 3rd fastest car winning? Do you want to do away with the race and give the winners trophy to the person who qualifies on pole?

Do you have examples of the 'dumbing down' or 'idiot rules'? F1 is a hugely complex sport, there is no simple 'sort it out' option.

Not a pop at you, I just like a sensible debate. We clearly see things from different angles. I've been watching F1 religiously for around 25 of my 31 years!

[CardiffGreens]

Without wanting to step on toes and interrupt someone else's discussion, there aren't any easy fixes - however I think a number of recent changes have culminated in causing a lot of problems with F1 - 

 

The over-reliance of aerodynamic grip is basically the killer, it's what caused a faster ferrari to be stuck behind Petrov's lotus in Abu Dhabi - the need to maximise speed through cornering has meant the development of diffusers and more elaborate exhaust systems, all these making sure any aero benefit is reduced to any slipstreaming car - engineers in F1 are more than aware of this, and are more than annoyed at the situation because they can't design cars to go fast enough and be able to run in dirty air to create the consistent close racing everyone longs for.

I like the concept of DRS more than KERS - as it's a visible technology - you can see when it's deployed, rather than relying on some on-screen graphic to find that yes, Mark Webber's KERS has broken again.  The problem with DRS is the ridiculous arbitrary nature of it, the situation of allowing someone to use it to pass, but not defend unless they're lucky enough to have a handy backmarker to enable the boost.

The lack of refuelling has led to this situation of "race management" coming to the fore, something RBR have taken to the tee with their "get pole, banzai for 3 laps then turn down the engine and manage the gap" it's also meant that with Pirelli creating tyre compounds out of pink wafer biscuits that leading teams won't rely on contrary strategies - they'll simply cover each over if someone strays off the computer-determined fastest route.

Constantly changing the regulations every season certainly doesn't help either, as each team spends the first 6 races shaking down before copying the magic silver bullet de jour. 

 

And while I'm moaning, that crazy "new" points system can sod off - 25 for a win.... Bleh.

 

Apologies for the wall of text, should have taken this to the things that piss you off thread =P

 

 

Edit, on a lighter note - everyone's favourite Max Chilton was asked to rate the season so far prior to the British GP, 8 out 10 he replied...

Edited June 30, 2013 by CardiffGreens

[Genie]

Some good points there Cardiff. I was a big fan of refuelling and the tactical element it brought to the sport. It often shook up the starting grid when someone went for a crazy light fuel load to get to the front row... or was it raw pace, you never knew until the race.

 

Ref the (25) points and the constant regulation changes these were both brought in to keep the season exciting thoughout its entire duration. If they froze the regualtions for the next 5 years it is almost a certainly RBR would have 5 more driver and constructors championships. The regualtion changes keep teams on their toes and gives the others like Force India, Lotus etc the chance to mix it with the big boys. 25 points for a win was brought in to encourage the runner in second to challenge for the lead. 8 extra points rather than 2 being the incentive. A good move in my opinion.

[AVFCforever1991]

 

[BOF]

There was either a manufacturing defect in the parts or, as is being reported, a 'razor sharp' kerb. A one off.

Silverstone has not introduced new kerbs. They're no more razor sharp than they've ever been. If a tyre turns up at Silverstone that can't handle the kerbs then that's the tyre manufacturer's fault, not the kerb. And that misses the point anyway. Silverstone is on the calendar so the tyre should be able to handle it. Silverstone is not unique. We won't get a repeat next weekend but what about Monza or Suzuka? The reason we won't get a repeat in Monza or Suzuka despite them being similar corner forces to Silverstone is because the FIA will come down like a ton of bricks on Pirelli. All of this after making Pirelli's situation all the more difficult in F1 by not allowing them to test effectively. Which is another example of dumbing down F1. See? It's all inextricably linked.

Ref DRS this was brought in directly to avoid the events such as Alonso getting stuck for the entire race behind a slower car in Abu Dhabi.

I know why it was brought in. It was brought in because it was an easier solution than re-writing the design rules so that the aerodynamics of a car creating 'dirty air' didn't affect the following car so badly. Which would also solve the Alonso problem but would do it in a racing manner rather than a playstation boost button manner, but I refer back to our new fans, bless their cotton socks.

What is wrong with the 3rd fastest car winning? Do you want to do away with the race and give the winners trophy to the person who qualifies on pole?

Taken as a stand-alone comment, there's nothing wrong with the 3rd fastest car winning. But in the context of this race and of WHY the 3rd fastest car won, then there is something wrong with it. But I suspect you knew where I was coming from on that before you asked the question

Do you have examples of the 'dumbing down' or 'idiot rules'? F1 is a hugely complex sport, there is no simple 'sort it out' option.

DRS is the worst kind of dumbing down. The banning of in-season testing is dumbing down as it seriously impacts on development. Banning T/C, banning exotic alloys (beryllium), banning exhaust blown diffusers, off-throttle exhaust, the multitude of ingenuity that gets trampled every season.

[choffer]

 

Meh. I've got better photos of it than that.

Will post some tonight if anyone's interested.

[Genie]

 

There was either a manufacturing defect in the parts or, as is being reported, a 'razor sharp' kerb. A one off.

Silverstone has not introduced new kerbs. They're no more razor sharp than they've ever been. If a tyre turns up at Silverstone that can't handle the kerbs then that's the tyre manufacturer's fault, not the kerb. And that misses the point anyway. Silverstone is on the calendar so the tyre should be able to handle it. Silverstone is not unique. We won't get a repeat next weekend but what about Monza or Suzuka? The reason we won't get a repeat in Monza or Suzuka despite them being similar corner forces to Silverstone is because the FIA will come down like a ton of bricks on Pirelli. All of this after making Pirelli's situation all the more difficult in F1 by not allowing them to test effectively. Which is another example of dumbing down F1. See? It's all inextricably linked.

Ref DRS this was brought in directly to avoid the events such as Alonso getting stuck for the entire race behind a slower car in Abu Dhabi.

I know why it was brought in. It was brought in because it was an easier solution than re-writing the design rules so that the aerodynamics of a car creating 'dirty air' didn't affect the following car so badly. Which would also solve the Alonso problem but would do it in a racing manner rather than a playstation boost button manner, but I refer back to our new fans, bless their cotton socks.

What is wrong with the 3rd fastest car winning? Do you want to do away with the race and give the winners trophy to the person who qualifies on pole?

Taken as a stand-alone comment, there's nothing wrong with the 3rd fastest car winning. But in the context of this race and of WHY the 3rd fastest car won, then there is something wrong with it. But I suspect you knew where I was coming from on that before you asked the question

Do you have examples of the 'dumbing down' or 'idiot rules'? F1 is a hugely complex sport, there is no simple 'sort it out' option.

DRS is the worst kind of dumbing down. The banning of in-season testing is dumbing down as it seriously impacts on development. Banning T/C, banning exotic alloys (beryllium), banning exhaust blown diffusers, off-throttle exhaust, the multitude of ingenuity that gets trampled every season.

 

 

Hey BOF, I personally think you're mixing up 'dumbing down' with 'cost cutting' which was a series of measures introduced to attract new teams as several big teams walked away and new 'privateers' were unable to afford to join.

In season testing, limits on gearbox and engines, refuelling, limit on tyre use over a weekend. These were measures introduced to make it easier for 'poorer' teams to compete (not really sure it has worked mind). Traction control, launch control and other electrical aids were removed as it was deemed they made it too easy for the drivers, taking them away has made it more of a technical challenge for them and more interesting for the spectators. There is a high degree of skill involved in just getting off the line these days which I welcome. Gone are the days of the driver just pressing a button for optimum start. That is the opposite of dumbing down isn't it?

 

I'm still not sure on the 3rd fastest car comment (I'm not trying to be funny either ). From the beginning of time cars drop out who should win for a whole host of reasons. This race was no different. That's what makes F1 interesting. 

[BOF]

There's a grey area where; depending on where you're coming from; you can use dumbing down or cost cutting to describe something. Some things are a combination of both. I know they cost cut to get teams in but it still changes what F1 is. F1 was the pinnacle of technical advancement in racing and Bernie used to say that it shouldn't be making it easy to exist in F1. He often said if you can't stand the heat then get out of the kitchen. Now the sport has changed. It is no longer striving to be the pinnacle. It is actively making itself a less 'clever' car. Which is fine but it's not what F1 was. And as for standing the heat in the kitchen. In order to attract new teams to the kitchen they've just turned off a couple of the cookers to bring the heat down. Again, that's fine, but it does change what F1 is. Add to that the amount of fans who like DRS; who actually like artificial overtaking; and it becomes quite depressing to see what it has become.

[Eames]

The rules (all of them) need a total overhaul. My suggestions:

 

• Get rid of DRS for starters. I'm with BOF its like the Wacky **** Races it totally de-skills teh drivers and provides absolutely no excitement whatsoever.  
• Get rid of KERS - again, adds very little to the sport IMO beyond "OMFG - he's pressing the BOOST button" If you want the cars to go faster - allow them to go faster for the whole lap.... not just in silly fits and starts.
• Remove the engine restictions - if teams want a massive v12 let them have it...... if they want a turboed v8 - allow that too - different solutions to the ultimate aim - get the car to the flag as fast as you can.
• Introduce competition in the tyre supplier
• Impose ONE mandatory pitstop for tyres
• Use 1 tyre compound for the race weekend quali and all - limit sets of tyres to 3 per car per weekend. If you puncture you have spares available.... after that... tough.
• Permit mid season testing
• Impose a set volume of fuel per car per weekend..... teams will have to balance quali times with fuel efficiency
• Re-introduce refuelling into the race.
• Introduce aerodynamic laws so that the air behind the car is "clean" you can't "dirty" the air flow from the back of the car to disadvantage an opponent.
• Ban electronically managed engines. If a driver needs to nurse his car let him do it himself not flick a switch on the car and have it done for him.

Oh and most importantly NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER race at a Tilke desinged circuit again. The problems in f1 and the appalling lack of overtaking are a direct result of this idiots circuit design which pretty much prevents it. The template of huuuuuuuge straight, sharp bend... wobbly bit..... straight sharp bend repeat is shit. It is no co-incident the best races to watch and the ones the drivers love are the older established circuits (monaco, silverstone, montreal, hockenheim, spa) that this collosal bellend hasn't been allowed anywhere near.

 

Feel free to argue with me.

[BOF]

KERS is different. I'm in favour of KERS because it IS a technical advancement and rather than disadvantage the car in front, it is available to ALL cars at ALL times provided they've managed it. It also has real-world applications where something like DRS doesn't. DRS was an easy solution to a difficult problem. KERS is a difficult solution and a development that adds to everything. Yes you have to limit your use to make sure you don't run out of it, but it's not reliant upon being <1s behind someone and if he pushes the button then you can too. So it's not like DRS where one car has no rear wing and one is a sitting duck because he happens to find himself ahead of you in the race.

I also would not re-introduce re-fuelling for 2 reasons. The first is safety but the second is for the racing spectacle on 2 fronts. Firstly, by having re-fuelling you can keep the car light and make the race a series of mini-sprints between cars whose handling characteristics never change over the course of a race. At the moment the designers need to design a car that can perform with a full tank and an empty one - and a car that's quick in one situation may not be as quick in the other situation. So the race is evolving all the time. That's a good thing. Secondly, when we had re-fuelling, the pitstop became a far more important means of overtaking and I don't want to go back to the days where teams used the pits as a regular way of overtaking. Yes it still happens to an extent at the moment but that's because the tyres are shit. The FIA wanted shit tyres as a way of artificially making the race exciting because their aero rules have limited overtaking. The biggest problem in F1 is the aero rules as it dictates so many other rules as a result. Fix the aero and you eliminate the need for so many other things and you 'fix' F1 almost instantly.

[bickster]

You can't on one hand relax engine size and then on the other hand limit fuel

[BOF]

You can't on one hand relax engine size and then on the other hand limit fuel

Well you can, because by limiting the fuel you are still giving the designer the freedom and ability to arrive at his own solution but within your consumption restrictions. It becomes a compromise on his behalf but at the same time you're giving him the freedom to arrive at his own solution. It can't be a free-for-all but at the same time they've gone too far the other way. Too much of F1 design has their hands completely tied. Adrian Newey contemplated walking away a while ago because the rules were taking design out of it. It was getting too close to being a one-make series and if you want that, there's always Formula Ford. Which brings me onto another dumbing down. The standard ECU and the complete restriction (via homologation) on engine development.

[Stevo985]

 It is no co-incident the best races to watch and the ones the drivers love are the older established circuits (monaco, silverstone, montreal, hockenheim, spa) 

I'd take Monaco out of that list.

 

I love it, and wouldn't take it out. But purely as a race it's usually pretty shit. The sport has outgrown monaco. It's purely the spectacle and tradition that keeps it on the calendar.

[BOF]

And of course the big news. Lewis and Nicole have split. Again.

[Genie]

And of course the big news. Lewis and Nicole have split. Again.

 

Great, so we're going to have to put up with his face like a smacked arse for the next 6 weeks again then.