HanoiVillan Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 16 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: If they’d done three years of spreadsheets on how to leave families of allies open to war crimes and murder I’m not sure that would have been better. Clearly the American military cannot, and should not, stay in northern Syria *literally forever*, so there has/had to be an eventual plan for a drawdown. Trump deserves a huge amount of blame for his handling of this, from how sudden it was, to how he announced it, to how he appears to have consciously refrained from using leverage to challenge Turkey. But the area called Kurdistan is always going to be next to Turkey and the American military can't stay there forever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 21 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: If they’d done three years of spreadsheets on how to leave families of allies open to war crimes and murder I’m not sure that would have been better. They've spent several years facilitating war crimes and murder, through the "moderate rebels". It sounds like Russia is going to manage the situation, which will be simpler if the US quickly withdraw. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 Wow. With friends like that, eh? We’re done here, **** you and **** your families. You might want to learn some Russian or get some Erdogan posters up a bit sharpish. Laterzzz. Love, America xxx. I’m no fan of any country having a dabble in another country, it’s difficult to see how America could have handled this much worse. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davkaus Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 15 hours ago, Villaphan04 said: ........................................... Erdogan reportedly just threw it in the bin. I can see why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 Reporter on the news this morning saying they’d seen copies of it and hadn’t reported it as they’d dismissed it as an obvious fake. Turns out it wasn’t. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 12 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: I’m no fan of any country having a dabble in another country, it’s difficult to see how America could have handled this much worse. I agree. But at least having them out of the way opens the door to a political solution rather than continual armed conflict. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 1 minute ago, peterms said: I agree. But at least having them out of the way opens the door to a political solution rather than continual armed conflict. I’m sure the Kurds welcome the political solution they are about to receive from Erdogan, Putin and Assad. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 22 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: I’m sure the Kurds welcome the political solution they are about to receive from Erdogan, Putin and Assad. I'm not demanding that you produce this on some random Thursday evening, but what is missing from all of the emotive talk of abandoning the Kurds is any kind of even medium-term plan for what 'not abandoning the Kurds' looks like. So far the only option appears to be the de facto annexation of northern Syria by the American army, but nobody seems to want to actually justify it on those terms. And if not that, what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 1 minute ago, HanoiVillan said: I'm not demanding that you produce this on some random Thursday evening, but what is missing from all of the emotive talk of abandoning the Kurds is any kind of even medium-term plan for what 'not abandoning the Kurds' looks like. So far the only option appears to be the de facto annexation of northern Syria by the American army, but nobody seems to want to actually justify it on those terms. And if not that, what? Yeah, if only there was time to conjur up some sort of multi national organisation that could be a buffer to stop genocide. Something nations could unite around. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 15 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: Yeah, if only there was time to conjur up some sort of multi national organisation that could be a buffer to stop genocide. Something nations could unite around. A buffer is not a medium-term solution, though, is it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 47 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: I’m sure the Kurds welcome the political solution they are about to receive from Erdogan, Putin and Assad. Are you aware of what is being proposed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 1 minute ago, peterms said: Are you aware of what is being proposed? Presently, indiscrimate shelling of civilians convoys evacuating the area and bombing the water supplies and hospitals of those choosing to stay. That’s Trump’s fault. It kinda makes medium term political permutations a bit academic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 14 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: Presently, indiscrimate shelling of civilians convoys evacuating the area and bombing the water supplies and hospitals of those choosing to stay. That’s Trump’s fault. It kinda makes medium term political permutations a bit academic. I was asking if you were aware of the proposed arrangement between Syria, Turkey, the Kurds, and Russia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AXD Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 (edited) Mulvaney just admitted the quid pro quo in the Ukraine call you can’t make this up Edited October 17, 2019 by AXD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 1 hour ago, peterms said: I was asking if you were aware of the proposed arrangement between Syria, Turkey, the Kurds, and Russia. I’m not sure what you’re trying to get at to be honest. I’m not absolutely up to speed on Putin’s and Erdogan’s proposals, no. I know there’s ‘protection’ from the Russians, I know Turkey want an anti terror buffer zone and somewhere to dump some refugees and a neat way of diluting the Kurds. I’m aware Assad will protect the Kurds by taking places like Raqqa back. A return to the good old days. But I don’t think anyone is suggesting that Trump had a master plan that will be carried out by Putin and Assad and Erdogan and that we can trust them on anything they promise? He has not had a plan to do the right thing. Trump left with no care about what would happen. It’s not even that he didn’t care, it just didn’t even occur to him that these are real people. these are just poor foreign brown nuisance, with no need for a golf resort, so they aren’t really real. The random chaotic luck of life might mean that in 30 years we can look back and say this was the beginning of a great future for the democratic free Kurds, all sorted for them by Trump, Putin, Assad and Erdogan. I just don’t think that’s the most likely outcome. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted October 18, 2019 Share Posted October 18, 2019 9 hours ago, chrisp65 said: I’m not absolutely up to speed on Putin’s and Erdogan’s proposals, no. I know there’s ‘protection’ from the Russians, I know Turkey want an anti terror buffer zone and somewhere to dump some refugees and a neat way of diluting the Kurds. I’m aware Assad will protect the Kurds by taking places like Raqqa back. A return to the good old days. But I don’t think anyone is suggesting that Trump had a master plan that will be carried out by Putin and Assad and Erdogan and that we can trust them on anything they promise? The aim seems to be to return to something like the 1998 Adana agreement, which involved Syria undertaking to prevent PKK operating in its territory, which Turkey saw as a significant threat. Turkey would have limited rights of incursion, for example in response to attacks, but would not occupy Syrian territory. It obviously depends on Syria regaining control of its territory. It would end the threat of Turkish occupation of swathes of Syria, while giving Turkey something to show in respect of what Russia recognises as its "legitimate security concerns". Syria regains its territory, the Kurds are safe from attack though don't become an autonomous area, which is the thing that Turkey seems most bothered by. It's not Trump's master plan, and I am not suggesting it is. What I'm saying is that he has been clear for several years that he wants to withdraw, but other forces within the US are keen to prevent this - though the idea that their motivation is concern for the Syrian people is laughable. The Russian approach appears to be to stabilise the area by achieving the return of Syrian areas to Syria while also reaching agreement with Turkey on not continuing its plans for annexation. That seems vastly preferable, to me. Ending conflict is also clearly required before refugees are able to return, leaving aside Turkey's barking proposal to forcibly resettle them in a strip of Syria occupied by Turkey. I see the US-Turkey "ceasefire" arrangement runs until the day of the forthcoming scheduled meeting between Erdogan and Putin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xela Posted October 18, 2019 Share Posted October 18, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted October 18, 2019 Moderator Share Posted October 18, 2019 23 hours ago, chrisp65 said: I’m sure the Kurds welcome the political solution they are about to receive from Erdogan, Putin and Assad. Russia's been repeatedly, intentionally bombing multiple hospitals for Assad, in Syria in recent weeks. I'm sure the Kurds have nothing to fear from those two. And Erdogan, he's a renowned respecter of human life and freedom. That lot make America look like angels, which they most certainly aren't. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted October 18, 2019 Moderator Share Posted October 18, 2019 10 hours ago, peterms said: The Russian approach appears to be to stabilise the area by achieving the return of Syrian areas to Syria Ha ha. Yeah, right. This is how they "help" Quote We recreated a day of airstrikes using video evidence, flight logs, witness reports and thousands of previously unheard Russian Air Force communications. “Srabotal,” the Russian pilot said. The Russian phrase, which directly translates as “it’s worked,” was confirmation that he had released his weapon on a target in Syria: Nabad al Hayat Surgical Hospital near the town of Haas in Idlib Province. Beginning in 2017, The Times’s Visual Investigations team has tracked the repeated bombing of hospitals in Syria, an apparent strategy of the Syrian military and Russia, its ally. More than 50 health care facilities have been attacked since the end of April in an offensive to reclaim Idlib Province from militants opposed to Syria’s president, Bashar al-Assad, according to the United Nations’ Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights. Our team combines traditional reporting with advanced digital forensics to understand major events in conflicts that Times reporters can’t access on the ground, like a chemical attack in Syriaor an American airstrike in Afghanistan. Finding visual evidence of Syrian hospitals that were badly damaged was not hard. We collected hundreds of photos and videos from Facebook groups and Telegram channels, two places on social media where Syrian journalists and citizens had shared hours of footage. Along with medical and relief organizations, users on those platforms sent us even more documentation, including internal reports and unpublished videos. While Russia has long been suspected of being behind these hospital bombings, direct evidence of its involvement was difficult to find, and Russian officials have denied responsibility. During our investigation, we obtained tens of thousands of previously unpublished audio recordings between Russian Air Force pilots and ground control officers in Syria. We also obtained months of flight data logged by a network of Syrian observers who have been tracking warplanes to warn civilians of impending airstrikes. The flight observations came with the time, location and general type of each aircraft spotted.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted October 18, 2019 Share Posted October 18, 2019 51 minutes ago, blandy said: Ha ha. Yeah, right. This is how they "help" Yes, the NYT has done this one before. It's a hospital, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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