U.S. Politics

[limpid]

1 hour ago, A'Villan said:

I think you'll find I think it has everything to do with politics.

Make that case then.

1 hour ago, A'Villan said:

Whether that be the discussion of governance and which party is suitable.

You didn't mention parties at all. Epstein knew a lot of people from all walks of life. Politicians, not politics.

1 hour ago, A'Villan said:

Or the activities aimed at improving someone's status or increasing power within an organization.

What activities? Be sure not to confuse correlation with causation.

1 hour ago, A'Villan said:

Epstein case makes the facade that emanates transparency and integrity a little less credible.

So does anything (everything) a politician says or does. That doesn't mean that everything they do is about politics.

1 hour ago, A'Villan said:

But I'm not going to argue with a mod as to what he deems appropriate.

I'm not posting as a mod or this would be in red and you'd have been warned for commenting on moderation

Demonstrate that anything Epstein did was political and that would go in this thread.

[A'Villan]

@limpid

You want me to make that case? Fair enough. Step up or shut up, I can appreciate that.

I've always admired the conviction and authority you write with on any subject, and I appreciate you making the last point as you have.

There is one part of your most recent replies which makes me second guess my stance, which is your "correlation with causation" comment.

I have no insight as to why you made it, which makes me wonder if I am missing something that I should be aware of.

I was under the impression that it was clearly a relevant topic considering the details we are privy to regarding Epstein's life and dealings.

No he never became a politician himself, but surely you are familiar with the Koch family spending just short of a billion on influencing U.S political campaigns?

The Kochs also created philanthropic entities that enable them to aggressively pursue a libertarian agenda of lower taxes, deregulation of business and denial of climate change.

What's this got to do with Epstein? Same story, different pen. The rich don't work for money, money works for the rich, and the parallels are there.

It's no surprise then that Epstein also started philanthropic entities, made political donations, and to the same politicians who he also supplied women to.

So while he is not a politician himself, he holds clout and is undeniably associated with political figures of some influence. Trump shared his private jet.

This is why I thought it obvious that he is relevant to to U.S political discussions, should someone want to bring him up, as he is the epitome of the culture entrenched in politics.

Anyway, Epstein excelled himself into success within the banking industry because he was good at tax mitigation for their wealthy clientele.

He later was a 'pioneer' of expanding the kind of debt that could be created between a borrower and a lender. The guy's a financial engineer, not a politician.

He also had* his hand in Israeli military and intelligence.

He could have brought down some serious corruption should he of got to tell his side of the story to the court and the public. We simply won't know.

Under 24 hour suicide watch, and he commits suicide? Right.

Edited November 6, 2019 by A'Villan

[limpid]

14 minutes ago, A'Villan said:

What's this got to do with Epstein? Same story, different pen. The rich don't work for money, money works for the rich, and the parallels are there.

Epstein was a chancer who courted the rich and powerful to provide a veneer of authenticity.

So what were his political goals?

[OutByEaster?]

 

6 minutes ago, limpid said:

Epstein was a chancer who courted the rich and powerful to provide a veneer of authenticity.

The rich and powerful are US politics - more so than in just about any other established democracy.

Whether he had political goals or not, I think you can argue that he had the potential to affect the political goals of those he was courting can't you?

 

[limpid]

3 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

Whether he had political goals or not, I think you can argue that he had the potential to affect the political goals of those he was courting can't you?

Yes, absolutely and that's why I'm asking for arguments.

But without knowing what those goals were it's simply speculation that they even exist.

[OutByEaster?]

Just now, limpid said:

But without knowing what those goals were it's simply speculation that they even exist.

I think Mr Trumps political goals are reasonably clear.

If for example Mr Epstein was found to have supplied Trump with underage girls, I think there'd be a huge political impact. Epstein's goals wouldn't have been political, I'm sure he had no intention of bringing down a President, or adversely affecting any of the people that he provided for,  but actions involving figures of power in the US are political and his intention isn't the same as the affect his actions might have.

 

[villakram]

3 hours ago, StefanAVFC said:

I actually went looking based on villakram's post.

It's a Donald Trump Jr tweet based on a Breitbart article.

That's a fact, yet the transcript and the testimonies are false.

Hmm.

It would be interesting if you could show where in the transcript you believe the crime that Trump committed is proven - emphasis on proven - not looks bad or shady etc. This is a court case and circumstantial evidence that is irreparably colored with bias does not cut it.

Per Trump Jr. tweet now openly naming the leaker (hardly surprising that Breitbart went with it as they are a legit source in Trumpland) and his intrinsic links to Biden/Obama and their political Ukraine policy, that Trump is not necessarily following, tomorrow's reporting and it's tone will be quite interesting.

[limpid]

6 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

I think Mr Trumps political goals are reasonably clear.

If for example Mr Epstein was found to have supplied Trump with underage girls, I think there'd be a huge political impact. Epstein's goals wouldn't have been political, I'm sure he had no intention of bringing down a President, or adversely affecting any of the people that he provided for,  but actions involving figures of power in the US are political and his intention isn't the same as the affect his actions might have.

Agreed. And that's why we talk about Trump.

If it's found that Epstein did anything like that, then it belongs in this thread. It might belong in this thread now if we knew about Epstein's political goals.

 

[blandy]

5 minutes ago, villakram said:

This is a court case and circumstantial evidence that is irreparably colored with bias does not cut it.

That's the approach the Trump lot are going with - try and discredit the character of the witnesses. It's a tactic as old as the hills. Get caught, say the evidence can't be believed because everyone providing it is a bad person with a grudge.

[bickster]

Right, some actual US Politics instead of kiddy fiddlers of the rich and famous.

I see the Democrats flipped the traditionally red State of Kentucky's Governor race

As a result #MoscowMitchIsNext appears to be trending (it's his state)

[StefanAVFC]

Trump's analogy needs to be taken further. 

He could shoot someone on 5th Avenue but if a dem called the police then it's a political witch hunt 

[HanoiVillan]

35 minutes ago, bickster said:

Right, some actual US Politics instead of kiddy fiddlers of the rich and famous.

I see the Democrats flipped the traditionally red State of Kentucky's Governor race

As a result #MoscowMitchIsNext appears to be trending (it's his state)

Have you been following the latest GOP anti-democratic shenanigans re this?

Senate president: Kentucky governor's race could be decided by state legislature

'Kentucky Senate President Robert Stivers threw another wrench into the state's razor-thin gubernatorial outcome late Tuesday night, saying that the legislature could decide the race.

Stivers' comments came shortly after Gov. Matt Bevin refused to concede to Attorney General Andy Beshear, who led by roughly 5,100 votes when all the precincts were counted.

“There’s less than one-half of 1%, as I understand, separating the governor and the attorney general,” Stivers said. “We will follow the letter of the law and what various processes determine.” 

[...]

Stivers said he thought Bevin’s speech declining to concede to Beshear was “appropriate.” He said believes most of the votes that went to Libertarian John Hicks, who received about 2% of the total vote, would have gone to Bevin and made him the clear winner.'

https://eu.courier-journal.com/story/news/politics/2019/11/06/beshear-vs-bevin-legislature-could-decide-race-senate-president-says/4174103002/

I haven't cut that off in a weird place. That's the end of the thought, per the article. 'When you think about it, I would've won . . . so I won'

[bickster]

I'm reading between the lines and thinking that Bevin thinks he should have got transfers from the Liberarian candidate?

[HanoiVillan]

2 minutes ago, bickster said:

I'm reading between the lines and thinking that Bevin thinks he should have got transfers from the Liberarian candidate?

I don't know what he's thinking, but as far as I'm aware it's a first-past-the-post election.

[bickster]

Just now, HanoiVillan said:

I don't know what he's thinking, but as far as I'm aware it's a first-past-the-post election.

Well yes, that is what confused me, I thought the same

[HanoiVillan]

16 minutes ago, bickster said:

Well yes, that is what confused me, I thought the same

They just really hate democracy, and are going to try to steal the election without even coming with an excuse

[A'Villan]

3 hours ago, bickster said:

Right, some actual US Politics instead of kiddy fiddlers of the rich and famous.

I see the Democrats flipped the traditionally red State of Kentucky's Governor race

As a result #MoscowMitchIsNext appears to be trending (it's his state)

Some actual US politics? Instead of kiddy fiddlers of the rich and famous?

I'm not sure the two are mutually exclusive. But it's all about priorities right?

You're talking Donald "Grab Her By The Pussy" Trump of the Trump towers. Can you get more rich and famous?

Which 'team' did better in a designated location is more important to governance than actually doing a good job?

[bickster]

Trump fined $2million for abusing the Trump Foundation money to fund his election campaign

[il_serpente]

Not just fund his election campaign, but just self-dealing in general.  Had forgotten about this and assumed there would never be any punishment, so a pleasant surprise that something has come of it after all this time.

[il_serpente]

So now it appears Ukraine president Zelensky was all set to go on CNN announce the investigation of Biden until Congress stepped in to get the aid release a couple of days before he was scheduled, and then he promptly cancelled the appearance.  Wonder how the White House and GOP will spin this development and where the goalposts will move to.

1.  It was a normal, perfect call with nothing inappropriate being said.   Decision to withhold aid was to apply pressure to end corruption.  -->  Transcript is released

2.  Nothing wrong with asking for a favor amid general pressure to address corruption, and there was no quid pro quo.  -->  Texts between ambassadors released

3.  Ambassador incorrectly interpreted it as a quid pro quo when President and Sondland had explicitly said it's not.  -->  Testimony by several officials reveal aid was being withheld pending announcement of investigation.

4.  It can't have been a quid pro quo because Ukraine didn't know that aid was being withheld until they agreed to open an investigation.  -->  Testimony reveals Ukraine were told specifically what they had to do to get the aid.

5.  It may have been a quid pro quo, but it's not a crime and doesn't rise to the level of the "high crimes and misdemeanors" mentioned in the constitution.  Besides, it wasn't really a quid pro quo because Ukraine never agreed to do what Trump asked and the aid was released anyway.   Trump should be praised for releasing the aid.  -->  It's revealed Zelensky was scheduled to go on CNN and do exactly what Trump had demanded.

6.????

My guess:   Zelensky's planned appearance on CNN was because part of his platform in running for President was to clean up corruption and this investigation was a logical follow on to that and had nothing to do with any pressure from Trump and his team.  You'll have to ask Mr. Zelensky why he cancelled the apprearance.