U.S. Politics

[snowychap]

1 hour ago, Rugeley Villa said:

I respect your views, so respect mine.

That is not how it works.

I respect your right to have your view and to voice it - indeed I encourage it because I'd like to know what other people think even if (or perhaps especially if) the view differs from the one I hold.

I have, however, absolutely no obligation to respect the view that you put forward just as you have no obligation to respect mine.

Edited November 11, 2016 by snowychap

[Chindie]

I struggle to take engagement with politics as either a scant spinoff positive or major boon of the major political moments if this year.

Partly because it's not really engagement with politics, and mostly because all the engagement in the world isn't going to matter when here we have a government and Parliament that simply isn't going to give a shit about dissent, and in the US in a while everyone will go back to their lives and in 4 years nobody will care again. Or worse in both cases a lot of people see how hopeless it is and give up entirely.

Edited November 11, 2016 by Chindie

[Rugeley Villa]

43 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said:

You post things like this and yet call the Mail a 'great read' who are guilty of much worse than in that screenshot

add to that "we wouldn't have seen trouble if trump/remain had won" even after their leaders and supporters saying otherwise before the result, and your posting is increasingly one-sided and hypocritical.

I like the mail because it shares some of my views. Also I grew up with it in the household. I do consider it a great read. Are all Mail readers bad uns? I think the hard left are more disruptive than most. I don't think I'm one sided. There was a time when I was interested in the bnp, there was a time when I enjoyed seeing bombs being dropped on Iraq. I was never allowed blacks in the house and my mum is a racist. My grandad is a typical old fashioned racist. I'm not. I'm more than likely to join Isis than I am the bnp, NF or whoever. I find the far right sick and embarrassing. My wife thinks I'm homophobic and sexist, I don't, I just have old fashioned views. I don't care what colour you are, if I like you then your my friend. If my son said he was gay, I'd rather he was not but I'd 100% accept it and never ever make it an issue. Same with my daughter. I'm not patriotic, what's there to be patriotic about? I respect and value this countries history and tradition but I'm not one for making any kind of deal out of st George's day. I hate little englanders. I think Islam is a problem like a lot of religions but Islam is way beyond any other. I'm a simple man who is a bit old fashioned and set in his ways. I'm not one for change. Probably boring you now but I'm not racist or an horrible person. I'm a good guy, I'd help anyone, white black brown or whatever. I just have my views and I'm proud of who I am and what I believe in, it's me. I'm open to other people's ideas and thoughts. Sometimes I've been wrong in the past. I'm human, I have different views to you, that's life.

Edited November 11, 2016 by Rugeley Villa

[StefanAVFC]

I've reconsidered my own conduct a fair bit in the last few days. I've been very quick to label large groups ot people, almost likely, unfairly. It's made me think I was wrong and need to adjust my viewpoint.

However, when you consistently try to approach a topic to give them a different review, you get push back. Regardless of how rational, factual or calm you are. Facts truely don't matter for some. There are definitely elements are the left that are too quick to label.but on the flipside, there are so many people that just aren't interested in listening and changing their viewpoint. The humility to stand up and appreciate that is missing from so many.

Also I acknowledge that there are many people in these rust belt states who have seen their jobs go but at the same time, a lot of these jobs are ones that have become redundant with modernization. Yes that's not these people's fault but people need to get with the times. We need to help people to be retrained with new skills so they can get new jobs. Is this the fault of the establishment or these individual people?

It would be case by case. But you can get that there's a fair few people whose job became redundant in this era and stubbornly said no, I will not change then went on to blame the establishment.

I think its hugely important we, as society, don't pander. We don't become economically illiterate in order to bring back redundant jobs. I still feel there's an element of push back from some people as they have a fear of change.

To be brutally honest, things are changing. Very quickly. There's people that need to change too. Not stamp their feet and blame others for the world around them changing

 

(im fully aware this probably doesn't make sense. I did it on my.phone and I'm knackered on the way home)

[StefanAVFC]

3 minutes ago, Rugeley Villa said:

I like the mail because it shares some of my views. Also I grew up with it in the household. I do consider it a great read. Are all Mail readers bad uns? I think the hard left are more disruptive than most. I don't think I'm one sided. There was a time when I was interested in the bnp, there was a time when I enjoyed seeing bombs being dropped on Iraq. I was never allowed blacks in the house and my mum is a racist. My grandad is a typical old fashioned racist. I'm not. I'm more than likely to join Isis than I am the bnp, NF or whoever. I find the far right sick and embarrassing. My wife thinks I'm homophobic and sexist, I don't, I just have old fashioned views. I don't care what colour you are, if I like you then your my friend. If my son said he was gay, I'd rather he was not but I'd 100% accept it and never ever make it an issue. Same with my daughter. I'm not patriotic, what's there to be patriotic about? I respect and value this countries history and tradition but I'm not one for making any kind of deal out of st George's day. I hate little englanders. I think Islam is a problem like a lot of religions but Islam is way beyond any other. I'm a simple man who is a bit old fashioned and set in his ways. I'm not one for change. Probably boring you know but I'm not racist or an horrible person. I'm a good guy, I'd help anyone, white black brown or whatever. I just have my views and I'm proud of who I am and what I believe in, it's me. I'm open to other people's ideas and thoughts. Sometimes I've been wrong in the past. I'm human, I have different views to you, that's life.

I mean, that's great and i appreciate a lot of things you've said there but none of it addresses my original point.

You labelled one set of media as "hard left tricks" and the other who do things just as bad, if not worse, as a great read. That's hypocritical.

 

You said that there would not have been a negative reaction if remain/Trump won, yet there's tonnes of evidence from Trump himself and key leave campaigners, that there would have been.

 

I'm not having a go at you as a bloke. You're probably lovely. I'm having a go at your views which are hypocritical. Sorry.

[sexbelowsound]

I'm enjoying reading this thread and seeing all the different stances people have. 

I must admit though I find people being labelled hard left or hard right quite strange. In this day and age I'm not sure how 'hard' anyone is towards one way or another. I've taken those political questionnaires and have come out more left wing than the Green Party but i know that isn't the case and share both 'left wing' and 'right wing' views on certain things.

Maybe im wrong but I find it hard to believe anyone is truely all left or all right in this day and age.

[Chindie]

Old fashioned views might be a brilliant euphemism.

The only good thing that comes of the Heil is the laughs it invariably raises in the Eye every fortnight.

[Rugeley Villa]

9 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said:

I mean, that's great and i appreciate a lot of things you've said there but none of it addresses my original point.

You labelled one set of media as "hard left tricks" and the other who do things just as bad, if not worse, as a great read. That's hypocritical.

 

You said that there would not have been a negative reaction if remain/Trump won, yet there's tonnes of evidence from Trump himself and key leave campaigners, that there would have been.

 

I'm not having a go at you as a bloke. You're probably lovely. I'm having a go at your views which are hypocritical. Sorry.

I think the mail gets it wrong a lot, But everytime? Mate personally I really don't think we would be seeing all this shit we are seeing now. Same with brexit, we would of just got on with it like we normally do. Don't listen to politicians because I honestly don't think the people would of made much of a deal. Maybe I'm wrong, we shall never know. I'm far from lovely, I just like to be honest. That's good right?

Edited November 11, 2016 by Rugeley Villa

[Rugeley Villa]

3 minutes ago, Chindie said:

Old fashioned views might be a brilliant euphemism.

The only good thing that comes of the Heil is the laughs it invariably raises in the Eye every fortnight.

What would be a better word then?

[Chindie]

4 minutes ago, sexbelowsound said:

I'm enjoying reading this thread and seeing all the different stances people have. 

I must admit though I find people being labelled hard left or hard right quite strange. In this day and age I'm not sure how 'hard' anyone is towards one way or another. I've taken those political questionnaires and have come out more left wing than the Green Party but i know that isn't the case and share both 'left wing' and 'right wing' views on certain things.

Maybe im wrong but I find it hard to believe anyone is truely all left or all right in this day and age.

'Hard left' is full blown communist, hard right has elements of many things but is as extreme. Very few people actually would subscribe to either. 'Hard' is just a label to discredit the viewpoint with shorthand.

[StefanAVFC]

9 minutes ago, Rugeley Villa said:

I think the mail gets it wrong a lot, But everytime? Mate personally I really don't think we would be seeing all this shit we are seeing now. Same with brexit, we would of just got on with it like we normally do. Don't listen to politicians because I honestly don't think the people would of made much of a deal.

i just think that's total utter bollocks. You're dismissing evidence for feelings.

And I agree with Chindie, "old fashioned views" is just a euphemism for justifying whatever bigoted viewpoints you may have. Certain views are and should remain old fashioned for a reason. Same with "traditional values".

Not aimed at you ruge, aimed at the phrase itself.

 

Edited November 11, 2016 by StefanAVFC

[sexbelowsound]

2 minutes ago, Chindie said:

'Hard left' is full blown communist, hard right has elements of many things but is as extreme. Very few people actually would subscribe to either. 'Hard' is just a label to discredit the viewpoint with shorthand.

Yeah that was what I was getting at. It's unnecessary and is detrimental to what I'm finding to be an interesting debate.

[Rugeley Villa]

4 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said:

i just think that's total utter bollocks. You're dismissing evidence for feelings.

And I agree with Chindie, "old fashioned views" is just a euphemism for justifying whatever bigoted viewpoints you may have. Certain views are and should remain old fashioned for a reason.

Not aimed at you ruge, aimed at the phrase itself.

 

That's fair enough.

[peterms]

18 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said:

I think its hugely important we, as society, don't pander. We don't become economically illiterate in order to bring back redundant jobs. I still feel there's an element of push back from some people as they have a fear of change.

Yes.  I'm doing some work in an area where major employers have drastically changed - flax and linen, once the biggest employer, gone; the docks that once exported more coal than anywhere else, closed; mines closed; farming and domestic service, once big employers, now employ a handful and virtually none, respectively.

As a society we can choose to react to this by turning back the clock, or by adapting.  If we adapt, we can either sit around and hope "the market" will provide (it won't), or else we can recognise that we need to insist that policies are followed which create useful and needed employment and let people get enough to live on in jobs that don't put their lives at risk and which offer some fulfilment and purpose as well.

Often in the last 40 years we have failed to prevent the wrong choices being made.

[Davkaus]

In a conversation like this, it's always worth linking the political compass, which breaks things down a little more than left-right, with an economic scale, and a social scale. For example it has Thatcher as more 'right wing' than Hitler based on economics, even though if you think of a single left-right scale that might sound absurd.

We naturally pair the two up, authoritarians tend to be right wing economically, and libertarians tend to be left wing economically, for example, but the degrees to which that's true can vary.

Interestingly (and accurately), both American presidential candidates are quite close to the top right corner.

[sexbelowsound]

2 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

In a conversation like this, it's always worth linking the political compass, which breaks things down a little more than left-right, with an economic scale, and a social scale. For example it has Thatcher as more 'right wing' than Hitler based on economics, even though if you think of a single left-right scale that might sound absurd.

We naturally pair the two up, authoritarians tend to be right wing economically, and libertarians tend to be left wing economically, for example, but the degrees to which that's true can vary.

Interestingly (and accurately), both American presidential candidates are quite close to the top right corner.

Yep. That's the one I used. Really useful and interesting resource. 

[Davkaus]

FWIW, I'm just a notch shy of wanting to seize the means of production from private owners and repurpose them for the common good.  

[StefanAVFC]

5 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

 

interestingly and

d accurately), both American presidential candidates are quite close to the top right corner.

Id argue trump is off playing with a magnet

[mjmooney]

I have old-fashioned views, too. 

Read the 1945 Labour Party manifesto, it's all in there. 

[sharkyvilla]

30 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

In a conversation like this, it's always worth linking the political compass, which breaks things down a little more than left-right, with an economic scale, and a social scale. For example it has Thatcher as more 'right wing' than Hitler based on economics, even though if you think of a single left-right scale that might sound absurd.

We naturally pair the two up, authoritarians tend to be right wing economically, and libertarians tend to be left wing economically, for example, but the degrees to which that's true can vary.

Interestingly (and accurately), both American presidential candidates are quite close to the top right corner.

I've read stuff by Democrat supporters praising David Cameron's liberal policies, which almost proves how conservative politics is over there.  The Tories probably would be closer to the Democrats than the Republicans, who could easily be three different parties if they were European.  At the moment the lunatic fringe seems to be in control.