chrisp65 Posted March 29, 2019 Share Posted March 29, 2019 See, I always thought it was down to monkeys and Studio 54. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted March 29, 2019 Share Posted March 29, 2019 1 hour ago, mjmooney said: Not in Europe/US, but in Africa, very much so. Why not in Europe/US? Religion and associated religious prejudices had a great deal to do with the narrative that it was some sort of moral retribution against homosexuality and that had a direct impact upon efforts to combat its spread. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted March 29, 2019 Share Posted March 29, 2019 I think it was a particular problem for the catholic church. It was a double whammy of saving the gays by advising them to use condoms. I don't know too much about islam, but for catholicism, they do appear to struggle with sex in any context. Certainly with sex for pleasure and recreation. It's so clearly a hang up for them. Not helped of course, by not allowing women in to positions of authority and not allowing priests to marry. The whole premise of celibacy acts as a denial of nature and a hiding place for the repressed and the guilty. Tell people the gays are damned and have a rule the priests can't marry. Hey presto, anyone struggling with their own identity has somewhere to hide from themselves and basically fester. All the above leading to repression of information and the unrealistic mantra of telling people not to shag each other. Recipe for disaster. I wouldn't have a clue how other faiths (jewish, hindu etc) have dealt with it. I think some of the protestant strands got on board with the safe sex programme relatively quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted March 29, 2019 Share Posted March 29, 2019 @Rugeley Villa I wouldn’t bother. Any opinion you have on this thread will just be put down with some sarcastic or condescending reply. We will never be intelligent enough to debate religion with those who are opposed to it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted March 29, 2019 Author VT Supporter Share Posted March 29, 2019 23 minutes ago, snowychap said: Why not in Europe/US? Religion and associated religious prejudices had a great deal to do with the narrative that it was some sort of moral retribution against homosexuality and that had a direct impact upon efforts to combat its spread. The Catholic church is hostile to condoms mainly because of their opposition to contraception. The spread of AIDS in Africa has been greater among heterosexuals than gays. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted March 29, 2019 Share Posted March 29, 2019 Just now, mjmooney said: The Catholic church is hostile to condoms mainly because of their opposition to contraception. The spread of AIDS in Africa has been greater among heterosexuals than gays. I don't dispute the issue in Africa was connected with the church, Mike. I think you're right there, obviously. What I disputed was that the spread of Aids/HIV in Europe and the US was not related to religion. I think it was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted March 29, 2019 Share Posted March 29, 2019 2 hours ago, VILLAMARV said: You know when the Police force do or are involved in something bad, which attracts criticism. And then the next thing you know, you have people reminding you what a hard job they do and that not all Police are bad. Even though no one said they were, or for one second thought they did an easy job? Yeah, that. What the hell are you talking about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VILLAMARV Posted March 29, 2019 Share Posted March 29, 2019 13 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said: What the hell are you talking about? Misdirection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted March 30, 2019 Moderator Share Posted March 30, 2019 9 hours ago, Vive_La_Villa said: I wouldn’t bother. Any opinion you have on this thread will just be put down with some sarcastic or condescending reply. Well, that's a new way of interpreting facts. Yes the Catholic Church being responsible for the spread of AIDS was sarcasm and condescension 9 hours ago, Vive_La_Villa said: We will never be intelligent enough to debate religion with those who are opposed to it. Did you see what you did there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted March 30, 2019 Share Posted March 30, 2019 (edited) 21 minutes ago, bickster said: Well, that's a new way of interpreting facts. Yes the Catholic Church being responsible for the spread of AIDS was sarcasm and condescension The sarcasm and condescension started way before the Catholic church stuff. (Which I have never researched so wont comment on. 21 minutes ago, bickster said: Did you see what you did there? Nope. Not intelligent enough. Anyway...UTV Edited March 30, 2019 by Vive_La_Villa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingram85 Posted March 30, 2019 Share Posted March 30, 2019 But the above posters are debating it with you VLV but because they aren’t on your side you are belittling them just as much as you perceive them to be belittling you and others. It’s like you’ll only talk to them as long as they say what you want them to say. I think religion is **** nuts and can’t believe any rational sane adult would believe in such bull**** propaganda but it doesn’t mean I’m going to be horrible to that person. I’ll belittle all religions all day every day but I’ll still be nice to the people who unfortunately fall for said bull****. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rugeley Villa Posted March 30, 2019 Share Posted March 30, 2019 Each to their own . God is out there if you want it to be, that’s what it all boils down to . He doesn’t even have to be real for people to find comfort and benefit from him. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted March 30, 2019 Share Posted March 30, 2019 (edited) 42 minutes ago, Ingram85 said: It’s like you’ll only talk to them as long as they say what you want them to say. I don’t think that’s the case at all. I just think those on here that think religion is b**lshit as you put it are a lot more passionate in their views then I am respectful of religion. So it can get a little heated at times. Also I haven’t got the literary skills to express my views as well as others on here. So it’s difficult to continue debates. Edit: I find it easier to debate on the On topic pages Edited March 30, 2019 by Vive_La_Villa 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingram85 Posted March 30, 2019 Share Posted March 30, 2019 10 minutes ago, Rugeley Villa said: Each to their own . God is out there if you want it to be, that’s what it all boils down to . He doesn’t even have to be real for people to find comfort and benefit from him. Mind boggling. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rugeley Villa Posted March 30, 2019 Share Posted March 30, 2019 14 minutes ago, Ingram85 said: Mind boggling. Why is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingram85 Posted March 30, 2019 Share Posted March 30, 2019 (edited) The amount of mental gymnastics required to go along with such claptrap is staggering. I guarantee if religion/religious education was stopped in schools/nurseries and not forced onto brainwashed kids by pushy parents then it would die out within a couple of generations. Most children would grow up to leave the education system as indoctrination free young adults and then when told about religion/deities/holy books etc... they’d laugh in your face and call you silly names. Edited March 30, 2019 by Ingram85 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted March 30, 2019 Share Posted March 30, 2019 (edited) 52 minutes ago, Ingram85 said: The amount of mental gymnastics required to go along with such claptrap is staggering. I guarantee if religion/religious education was stopped in schools/nurseries and not forced onto brainwashed kids by pushy parents then it would die out within a couple of generations. Most children would grow up to leave the education system as indoctrination free young adults and then when told about religion/deities/holy books etc... they’d laugh in your face and call you silly names. You could be right. But there is evidence of religion existing as far back as 100,000 BC so that may not be the case. Out of interest do you know much about Sikhism? It was started by a person that saw the effects of gender inequality and a caste system in medieval India. (Amongst many other things). It teaches that that men and women are equal then there is no such thing as caste. Now this is probably seems like common sense to me and you but at a time and a place where caste system was totally ingrained in society I find it amazing how these people fought (eventually literally with arms) to change that. It didn’t start off as a religion. It’s not forced on people and never has been. But back then it gave so many people a chance in life. I personally think it’s a very good example of religion doing good in a part of the world. Edited March 30, 2019 by Vive_La_Villa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingram85 Posted March 30, 2019 Share Posted March 30, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, Vive_La_Villa said: You could be right. But there is evidence of religion existing as far back as 100,000 BC so that may not be the case. Out of interest do you know much about Sikhism? It was started by a person that saw the effects of gender inequality and a caste system in medieval India. (Amongst many other things). It teaches that that men and women are equal then there is no such thing as caste. Now this is probably seems like common sense to me and you but at a time and a place where caste system was totally ingrained in society I find it amazing how these people fought (eventually literally with arms) to change that. It didn’t start off as a religion. It’s not forced on people and never has been. But back then it gave so many people a chance in life. I personally think it’s a very good example of religion doing good in a part of the world. I am still currently married (but separated) to an Indian Sikh girl from a Sikh family/background and - while it may be the Indian culture and not Sikh culture strictly - the caste system is still very much active without being openly spoke about and made obvious within Sikh communities. Perceived status and social standing is very important with a lot of Sikh families trying to keep up with the Joneses and this plays directly into the caste system. Although status and showing off can be applied to any culture I guess. It also has idols of worship. One over arching almighty. A god by any other name. Forcing Men to grow their hair and to not groom. As with all cultures a very conflicted view on homosexuality and is a very taboo subject within sikhism because of their misinterpreted belief in family life/marriage. Some very dodgy (mainly from older generations and those seeking high positions within the communities) views about inter racial marriage. We were warned at her local gurdwara about a Sikh group going around the West Midlands protesting and attempting to stop interracial weddings from happening. While certainly not nearly as bad as pretty much every other organised religion it still has its own doctrine, hierarchy and rules that people are expected to follow while simultaneously maintaining that everyone is equal. The text may say one thing, but since it’s inception, practice begs to differ. Edited March 30, 2019 by Ingram85 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted March 30, 2019 Share Posted March 30, 2019 4 hours ago, Rugeley Villa said: Each to their own . God is out there if you want it to be, that’s what it all boils down to . He doesn’t even have to be real for people to find comfort and benefit from him. 4 hours ago, Ingram85 said: Mind boggling. Makes perfect sense to me. It's in the spirit of 'whatever floats your goat' or the current fashion for mindfulness, or Quakerism or centering yourself. It's long been described as being the opiate of the people. I can see how a lot of people have their own personal god. The only problem really, is it takes away some of the criticism of the people that think believing a text is bonkers. Most people can understand that texts are stories and illustrations that have been translated and translated and translated again. So each to their own, he doesn't have to be real to create comfort. I can see that working for some folk. I think I could relate to a Quaker far easier than an aggressive front foot evangelical atheist. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingram85 Posted March 30, 2019 Share Posted March 30, 2019 3 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: Makes perfect sense to me. It's in the spirit of 'whatever floats your goat' or the current fashion for mindfulness, or Quakerism or centering yourself. It's long been described as being the opiate of the people. I can see how a lot of people have their own personal god. The only problem really, is it takes away some of the criticism of the people that think believing a text is bonkers. Most people can understand that texts are stories and illustrations that have been translated and translated and translated again. So each to their own, he doesn't have to be real to create comfort. I can see that working for some folk. I think I could relate to a Quaker far easier than an aggressive front foot evangelical atheist. I’d never stop him from believing in his own personal deity either but I can still say I think that whatever god and religion he’s tied his flag to is a complete sham and should be treated the same as Scientology and the flat earrh brigade. I think whatever his chosen religion is is bull**** but I don’t think the person themselves are bull**** and would gladly have them round for a cup of tea or dinner. It is possible to like the person but completely disagree fundamentally with their beliefs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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