tonyh29 Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 Scotland contributed 9.4% of the UK's tax take last year and only took back 9.3%. Scotland is funding the UK! Isn't that figure from 2009 /10 and only referring to public sector revenue ? Scottish water contribute a lot of this figure for example , where as all the other uk water companies are in the private sector and not included in the revenue stats to balance things out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Rev Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 16 year olds were given the vote over here in 2006. Most people agree it's been a positive thing. While I am inclined to agree with the principle, do you not think that bringing 16 & 17 year olds in specifically to vote on this issue is akin to gerrymandering? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted October 15, 2012 VT Supporter Share Posted October 15, 2012 While I am inclined to agree with the principle, do you not think that bringing 16 & 17 year olds in specifically to vote on this issue is akin to gerrymandering? It's why I don't like referendums (referenda, whatever). People seem to think that they should be used only for major political decisions. My feeling is exactly the opposite - they should be used for things which may be emotive, but have little or no political/economic impact - e.g. what the national flag or anthem should be. Things like membership of the single European currency, or political devolution are massively complex issues, definitely beyond the understanding of even the best-educated voter (let alone 16 year olds) - that's why we elect and pay "experts" to make those decisions on our behalf. I know they don't always get it right, but I don't want to give them the getout of a referendum on everything. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Rev Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 The single currency debate raises an interesting point with regards to this. I think we are all agreed now that not entering was totally the right decision (ask the Germans how they feel about having to bail out Greece) but what would have happened if the ruling powers at the time had decided to let 16 & 17 year olds vote? I would have been in that age bracket when the debate was raging and would have been quite likely to vote to join just because it meant I wouldnt have had to change my currency when I went to Magaluf for two weeks on the piss! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 Things like membership of the single European currency, or political devolution are massively complex issues, definitely beyond the understanding of even the best-educated voter (let alone 16 year olds) - that's why we elect and pay "experts" to make those decisions on our behalf. I know they don't always get it right, but I don't want to give them the getout of a referendum on everything. Wouldn't it be cool though if we could vote on all political issues via the red button on our remotes Should Peter Viggers be allowed to build an extension on his duck pond at the tax payers expense ... push the red button and vote now and for Irish viewers it can be wired so that should they vote " incorrectly" on anything it automatically makes them vote again until the get it right 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted October 15, 2012 VT Supporter Share Posted October 15, 2012 Wouldn't it be cool though if we could vote on all political issues via the red button on our remotes Should Peter Viggers be allowed to build an extension on his duck pond at the tax payers expense ... push the red button and vote now and for Irish viewers it can be wired so that should they vote " incorrectly" on anything it automatically makes them vote again until the get it right Well, that's pretty much the original Athenian method of democracy. Worked due to the small population, but rapidly became unworkable as populations became huge. However, with the technology we now have, we could feasibly do it again, as you suggest. My argument about the complexity of the issues still holds, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted October 15, 2012 VT Supporter Share Posted October 15, 2012 I've argued against referenda on the concept of the complexity involved in the issues on the table many times before now, so I agree wholeheartedly with Mike. Putting issues like, for example, EU membership on the table for Joe Public to have a say on is moronic. The same would go for this, which is part of the reason that the SNP has sought to make the debate primarily one of emotion and of fairly intangible ideas of identity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coda Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 Why aren't the Welsh asking for independence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted October 15, 2012 VT Supporter Share Posted October 15, 2012 Why aren't the Welsh asking for independence? They know a good thing when they see it... A more theoretical argument is that the Welsh have a less... solid... foundation for a claim of independence. Wales never particularly developed as a state in it's own right (by which I mean a more modern state, one with genuine governance, organisation, etc), Scotland did. Wales bases it's independence on things like language and little else, Scotland bases it's on a history of independence and the existance of a foundation of independent statehood (they actually did develop the beginnings of a proper 'state' way back when and carried on doing so for a while) as well as the cultural stuff, the language, a noted difference between 'us and them'. They've also been able to maintain the difference far more than Wales ever did thanks to that. Which all comes together to give any claim for Welsh independence less confidence from the get go. Plaid Cymru seems to have largely decided to be pragmatic with it's aims as they know that the Welsh don't really seem to care for independence that much, especially as I think they know that they are better off staying in the union than not. The party still occasionally bangs the independence drum, but does so half-heartedly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coda Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 They know a good thing when they see it... A more theoretical argument is that the Welsh have a less... solid... foundation for a claim of independence. Wales never particularly developed as a state in it's own right (by which I mean a more modern state, one with genuine governance, organisation, etc), Scotland did. Wales bases it's independence on things like language and little else, Scotland bases it's on a history of independence and the existance of a foundation of independent statehood (they actually did develop the beginnings of a proper 'state' way back when and carried on doing so for a while) as well as the cultural stuff, the language, a noted difference between 'us and them'. They've also been able to maintain the difference far more than Wales ever did thanks to that. Which all comes together to give any claim for Welsh independence less confidence from the get go. Plaid Cymru seems to have largely decided to be pragmatic with it's aims as they know that the Welsh don't really seem to care for independence that much, especially as I think they know that they are better off staying in the union than not. The party still occasionally bangs the independence drum, but does so half-heartedly. Sounds like Mel Gibson has a lot to answer for. I hope Scotland stays in the UK. We should get rid of Cornwall instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodders Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 yeah, I've been in Wales for about 7-8 years now, and whilst I've met one or two nationalists, most people really don't care - to the degree of wanting political seperation anyway. They obviously vbalue their own cultural and historical distinction fron England, and some are very keen to maintain the welsh language etc. The most active supporters of welsh independence, aside from the small plaid cymru lot, tend to be overseas students from countries that have a history of being colonised. They don't understand why wales aren't more passionate about it, mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markeefc Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 Theres a couple of points I want to make on this. As an Englishman I want to know why I am not being polled on my opinion of this. People forget to recognise that this is not just about Scottish Independence but is about the dissolving of the Act of Union, which is about the most important constitutional piece of legislation on which the UK is based. Don't get me wrong I would not be too bothered if Scotland went their own way, but this does affect more than just Scotland and I feel aggrieved that this is not being mentioned. More practically With regard to currency. Scotland only have two options. they can stay aligned with Sterling or they can establish their own currency. They can not take on the Euro as when/if they become an independent state, they will not be a member of the EU and will have to apply to join just like any other country, and will have to meet the stringent conditions set by the EU to do so. Borders - as they will not be a member of the EU, then freedom of travel between Scotland and the rest of the UK will have to be strictly controlled. Also, unless the EU give special dispensation as part of the independence treaty, Scottish citizens will need to apply for a work visa to work in the UK/EU. These are just a few of the issues the Scots really have to consider before making a decision to leave the UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 Well, that's pretty much the original Athenian method of democracy. Worked due to the small population, but rapidly became unworkable as populations became huge. However, with the technology we now have, we could feasibly do it again, as you suggest. My argument about the complexity of the issues still holds, though. Well the Swiss have a population just over 7.5 million with a great deal of direct democracy - or referenda. Given their neutrality, independence, standard of living with few natural resources and general "good bloke" international status, I don't think they are finding their citzenry too much of a barrier to informed decision making. You could certainly argue that the "experts" have made such a dogs arse of most, *cough*, democratic countries, that the wisdom of crowds really isn't so bad after all. The elite sneer 'populism', the people say 'democracy'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharkyvilla Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 They should just wait until after the 2015 General Election when the Tories are gone and the UK can rejoice. That's a point, if Scotland do leave then the Tories will pretty much walk most UK general elections wouldn't they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarewsEyebrowDesigner Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 I prefer the term plebiscite to referendum. I'd rather the people have a say than a small number of 'experts' who may be influenced/swayed by powerful lobbyists. However this ideal isn't practical until the media allows for a very informative public debate on such issues as the EU/Scottish Independence. Right now we don't have that, and the media is just as easily swayed, and we all suffer the consequence of being uninformed on the big issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Rev Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 I prefer the term plebiscite to referendum. I'd rather the people have a say than a small number of 'experts' who may be influenced/swayed by powerful lobbyists. As opposed to the masses who (myself included) are influenced/swayed by powerful media moguls? At least experts wont be blinded by bullshit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CI Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 What do I like about Scotland - some great golf courses, smoked salmon, Stornaway black pudding, black Angus beef, that's about it. I'm not too fussed if they go. The women are monsters generally, the weather is shite and I'm not sure what else they bring to the party? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ads Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 A good thing for Labour surely? What sort of future can the SNP and Salmond have after a defeat in this plebiscite? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Rev Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 If they lose they are finished. If the SNP cant win a vote when the Tories are in power, during a big sporting year for Scotland (Commonwealth Games) on the 700th anniversary of the Battle of Bannockburn then they arent going to win it in his lifetime. Salmond has got as many things in his favour as he could realistically hope to get really and if he loses then his political career is on the ropes. He will still need to play heavily to the younger voters though, I can see him going big on free university places and a sense of Scottish pride more prevalent in youngsters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GarethRDR Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 I once tried to open a string of gentlemen's clubs, erm, near Fife, north of the border. But, err they're just not ready. Glasgow's been industrial for a while, but in many ways it's still a Third World country up there; but they'd be the first to accept that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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