Could Noah's Ark hold all the animals?

[mjmooney]

Mind you, who are the suckers here?

These people who believe in talking snakes and angels - or us? Somebody starts a thread with the title "Could Noah's Ark hold all the animals?", and we actually attempt to debate the issue as if there were any point to doing so, rather than simply providing the correct and obvious answer of "No it couldn't, even if it existed", and end the thread.

[Kiwivillan]

And I forgot to realise early on that people that are religious have a monopoly on the bible and its interpretation.

[dundeevilla]

Oh right.. so now I'm a liar?..

Maybe not a liar, but tragically deluded.

[Stevo985]

Mind you, who are the suckers here?

These people who believe in talking snakes and angels - or us? Somebody starts a thread with the title "Could Noah's Ark hold all the animals?", and we actually attempt to debate the issue as if there were any point to doing so, rather than simply providing the correct and obvious answer of "No it couldn't, even if it existed", and end the thread.

I've provided that answer a number of times!

Seems to get lost in the huge river of bullshit though

As you say, the simple answer is no. There is absolutely no way.

And even if it could, it would end up being a sort of animal royal rumble.

Would actually be pretty interesting!

[limpid]

God, who is out of time and therefore would have no concept of consequence was always aware of this and everything else simultaneously. So either he was not out of time or he knew his creation was always wicked even before he created it. Which is the lie? Or is this another translation error?

No not at all. God can choose to intervene but he gave his Creation free will neither the Angels or mankind were created as robots...The Bible teaches very much that their will be consequences for evil actions.

We all have a God given choice.

The two things are mutually exclusive. If god is outside of time, then he is aware of all things which occur, be they in the past or the future. There can be no free will. You cannot have it both ways.

If god gave man free will, he cannot be outside of time.

[DiegoD]

Mind you, who are the suckers here?

These people who believe in talking snakes and angels - or us? Somebody starts a thread with the title "Could Noah's Ark hold all the animals?", and we actually attempt to debate the issue as if there were any point to doing so, rather than simply providing the correct and obvious answer of "No it couldn't, even if it existed", and end the thread.

I said Answered with a simple "No." on page 2 but unfortunately i do not have the power to lock the thread.

[Jon]

and we actually attempt to debate the issue

It looks like it's only a select few who are 'debating' this, Mike.

Most of us seem to be looking in from the outside in amusement, that amusement coming from both sides of the divide/argument.

[AVFCLaura]

and we actually attempt to debate the issue

It looks like it's only a select few who are 'debating' this, Mike.

Most of us seem to be looking in from the outside in bemusement, that bemusement coming from both sides of the divide/argument.

Fixed for you

[Jon]

and we actually attempt to debate the issue

It looks like it's only a select few who are 'debating' this, Mike.

Most of us seem to be looking in from the outside in bemusement, that bemusement coming from both sides of the divide/argument.

Fixed for you

True. This thread does both amuse and bemuse me at the same time.

[chrisp65]

If god gave man free will, he cannot be outside of time.

after many years of research, I believe Chris Farlowe is out of time

seriously guys, so much anger in this thread, it always goes this way by around page 30

we've had abortion tossed in, the nazi's have made an appearance, rule 34 yet to raise it's head though

if the bible is at it's most basic form a guide book for us all to get through life in a civilised manner then how brief could it have been?

I've got it down to:

1. Be fair to each other.

2. If that fails forgive each other and try again.

3. If that fails, exclude the one that isn't being fair.

4. After a period of time allow that person back in.

5. Return to step 1.

[mjmooney]

God, who is out of time and therefore would have no concept of consequence was always aware of this and everything else simultaneously. So either he was not out of time or he knew his creation was always wicked even before he created it. Which is the lie? Or is this another translation error?

No not at all. God can choose to intervene but he gave his Creation free will neither the Angels or mankind were created as robots...The Bible teaches very much that their will be consequences for evil actions.

We all have a God given choice.

The two things are mutually exclusive. If god is outside of time, then he is aware of all things which occur, be they in the past or the future. There can be no free will. You cannot have it both ways.

If god gave man free will, he cannot be outside of time.

You forget that they have the get out of jail free card: God is magic, he can do what he damn well likes. And that includes irreconcilable paradoxes.

God moves in mysterious ways, blah blah, we mere mortals cannot be expected to understand the unknowable, blah blah, science and logic only apply to the temporal realm, not the spritual and metaphysical, blah blah...

You cannot convince them, they just fall back on "It just is, so there, ner ner", every time.

I would say "Who cares? Just leave them to it", but it's the brainwashing of children that keeps me angry. Faith schools? NO!

[ME]

If god gave man free will, he cannot be outside of time.

after many years of research, I believe Chris Farlowe is out of time

seriously guys, so much anger in this thread, it always goes this way by around page 30

we've had abortion tossed in, the nazi's have made an appearance, rule 34 yet to raise it's head though

if the bible is at it's most basic form a guide book for us all to get through life in a civilised manner then how brief could it have been?

I've got it down to:

1. Be fair to each other.

2. If that fails forgive each other and try again.

3. If that fails, exclude the one that isn't being fair.

4. After a period of time allow that person back in.

5. Return to step 1.

This.

No one is going to change anyone's belief. And why would you want to? People just go from a simple debate to anger and insult. Let it be. *unless you practice Scientology... then I laugh at you...jk* Can someone lock this thread yet?

[JulieB]

I'm sorry Julie but there is nothing in the above that does anything to change the view I expressed in the post you quote. This is not in any shape or form evidence to support your stance, quite the opposite actually.

I've already illustrated that the Nazi party's stance and indeed their actions pre-dated 1933 and can be easily traced back to 1920. The above letter is all about self interest and presevation it has nothing to do with other persecuted groups.

There is no defence of the Jews or outrage at the actions of the Nazi party towards anyone other than their own.

I'm sorry but I still see no evidence to support your previous claim, I see only evidence of a faith group looking after their own which seems to me fairly standard practise of most faith groups.

I would applaud any religious movement that stood up for the Jews and any group of people persicuted by the Nazi movement but your faith like the Catholic Church didn't do that.

That's not what you asked Trent.. you asked where JWs had condemned the Nazis and Hitler?... I answered that point

JWs were being locked up in in Concentration camps long before Jews were in 1933...so how can you complain that a condemnation in 1934 against Hitler was only looking after their own interests? Of course it would be!

Hear is a list of further proclamations that Jehovah's Witnesses made against Hitler and when

Witnesses Expose Nazi Atrocities

As Jehovah’s Witnesses had promised, they began exposing the atrocities occurring in Germany. Witnesses around the globe repeatedly registered protests with the Hitler government.

In 1935, The Golden Age exposed the Inquisitionlike torture methods of the Nazi regime and its spy system. It also revealed that it was the aim of the Hitler Youth organization to purge Germany’s youths of their belief in God. The following year a nationwide Gestapo campaign resulted in the arrests of thousands of Witnesses. Soon after, on December 12, 1936, the Witnesses answered with their own campaign, blanketing Germany with tens of thousands of copies of a resolution protesting the persecution of Jehovah’s Witnesses.

On June 20, 1937, the Witnesses who were still free distributed another message that was unsparing in its detail about the persecution. It named officials and cited dates and places. The Gestapo were appalled at this exposure and the ability of the Witnesses to carry it off.

Love of neighbor is what compelled the Witnesses to warn the people of Germany not to be fooled by the grandiose vision of a glorious thousand-year rule by the Third Reich. “We must tell the truth and give the warning,” said the booklet Face the Facts, published in 1938. “We recognize the totalitarian government . . . as the product of Satan brought forth as the substitute for God’s kingdom.” Jehovah’s Witnesses were among the first targets of Nazi abuse, but they also loudly decried atrocities against Jews, Poles, the handicapped, and others.

The resolution “Warning!,” adopted at a 1938 convention of Jehovah’s Witnesses in Seattle, Washington, U.S.A., said: “The Fascists and Nazis, radical political organizations, have wrongfully seized control of many countries of Europe . . . All the people will be regimented, all their liberties taken away, and all will be compelled to yield to the rule of an arbitrary dictator and then the ancient Inquisition will be fully revived.”

Rutherford regularly took to the airwaves, delivering powerful lectures on the satanic nature of Nazism. The lectures were rebroadcast globally and were printed for distribution by the millions. On October 2, 1938, he delivered the address “Fascism or Freedom,” in which he denounced Hitler in no uncertain terms. “In Germany the common people are peace-loving,” Rutherford proclaimed. “The Devil has put his representative Hitler in control, a man who is of unsound mind, cruel, malicious and ruthless . . . He cruelly persecutes the Jews because they were once Jehovah’s covenant people and bore the name of Jehovah, and because Christ Jesus was a Jew.”

As the Nazi rage against Jehovah’s Witnesses reached new heights, the Witnesses’ denunciations became ever more scathing.

The May 15, 1940, issue of Consolation stated: “Hitler is such a perfect child of the Devil that these speeches and decisions flow through him like water through a well-built sewer.”

Hopefully that has now answered your point...In 1938 Rutherord gave a worldwide broadcast condemning Hitler and exposing his treatment of the Jews. WW2 hadn't even broke out then - Hitler didn't invade Poland until 1939 as you know

I would applaud any religious movement that stood up for the Jews and any group of people persicuted by the Nazi movement but your faith like the Catholic Church didn't do that.

Perhaps you might revise that statement just a little now Trent.

There is alot more evidence with interviews regarding all this in the video entitled "Stand Firm Against Nazi Assault" produced by the WT society along with an educational pack. It is used across the globe to teach children and adults about the Holocaust and in religious studies.

EDIT ADD: The broadcast of J R Rutherford in 1938 "Freedom or Facism" is available for download for anyone to listen to anyone thinks that's a lie. A recording of the broadcast was made and played in people's homes across the globe by Jehovah's Witnesses.

[dundeevilla]

Whether or not JWs sucked up to Hitler to curry favour until they realised he hated them as much as he did the Jews (they did) is irrelevant to this argument anyway.

The fact is the JW church is organised like a cult and has a cultish belief system.

It's a cult. Get out while you can Julie.

(All religions are essentially cults, but for the sake of this argument I use cult in the traditional sense.)

[JulieB]

Here is the link to the Broadcast Facism or Freedom

by J F Rutherford October 2 1938

Edit Add:

A completley independent book on resistance which devotes a chapter to Jehovah's Witnesses and how they resisted the Nazis is readily available on Google books Confront!: Resistance in Nazi Germany by By John J. Michalczyk

Page 31 gives details of Freedom or Facism speech and it's impact in 1938 specifically.

[TrentVilla]

Thank you Julie, I will look at those and I will perhaps rethink my view point we shall see. No offence intended but I always make my own mind up on these things and as I'm sure you will admit yourself you do come from a slightly biased view point on this one. I will also do the same with the stuff Risso has posted in the interests of fairness because there seems to be a vast gap between the two stances.

I'm still not buying the tale about the big boat though....

[kidlewis]

the fact that when my uncle became a JW he went completely mental probably gave me warning signs.

and he's been one twice and was pretty normal inbetween those periods.

so either his JW friends are mental or the religious beliefs hold some power which turn you mental.

mental.

[Risso]

the fact that when my uncle became a JW he went completely mental probably gave me warning signs.

and he's been one twice and was pretty normal inbetween those periods.

so either his JW friends are mental or the religious beliefs hold some power which turn you mental.

mental.

Mental

[JulieB]

Thank you Julie, I will look at those and I will perhaps rethink my view point we shall see. No offence intended but I always make my own mind up on these things and as I'm sure you will admit yourself you do come from a slightly biased view point on this one. I will also do the same with the stuff Risso has posted in the interests of fairness because there seems to be a vast gap between the two stances.

I'm still not buying the tale about the big boat though....

That's fair enough.. I wouldn't expect anything else.

The book which is nothing to do with the WT Society called Confront! Resistance in Nazi Germany which I've also just posted a link to above - additionally outlines in quite a bit of detail regarding this topic - from page 23 onwards.

Begnning on Page 30 the section is entitled "Watchtower Publications Expose Expanding Evil" and quotes directly from Golden Age (Awake) articles beginning in 1933 exposing the concentration camps.

In the interests of fairness though the guy who wrote that particular section is James E Pellechia and having Googled him he does appear to be a JW so I think the author must have asked him to collate the info for him.

However the book is written by John Michalczyk in 2003 and he has a PHd from Harvard and is a Professor of Fine Arts and Film at Boston College, so I would expect he would check any sources thoroughly. The book is about Nazi Resistance in general obviously.

[Sie]

Not only that, his omniscience means he knew it would fail before it failed. It means he knew the flood would fail (so why bother doing it?) but it didn't stop him from committing watery genocide anyway.

So it seems that when staring complete and utter failure in the face, this God still goes ahead and fails anyway. He's not only immoral but a complete **** moron. He's all power and the creator of all things including the rules that define original sin and yet he can't overrule them. He defined his own demise and then blamed it on his creation so he's a **** coward too.

I hope I meet the guy some day so I can kick him in the bollocks.

Sin is in the world..There is no failure on any part because in the end God wins.

Its like I said..

Try to imagine 2 great forces beyond the universe playing a game of chess. Good v Evil.

1st move, God creates.

2nd move, Evil puts sin into the creation to destroy it.

3rd move, (you cant undo the move played by Evil, you can only try and counteract it) So God comes down as man, thus becoming one of us, he lives and feels as a man. He dies which means the sin is pointless. The wage for sin is paid..It was the mother of all moves in this game of chess. God made a move to save his creation even though we sin.We are saved through Jesus Christ.

4th move(this is my guess), Evil possess Mohammed,thus producing the Koran which is brilliant in the way it works to gain control of the creation. It was made to spread fast and hard it takes the creation away from Jesus.

A coward? You go through the life Jesus went through..

What celestial rule prevents God from not "undoing" Evil? He's all knowing, all power, he created and has power over everything - its perfectly within his ability. You've contradicted yourself and nothing you have written here invalidates what I posted. Try again.