The, he's finally GONE! Tell us your thoughts Thread

[Keyblade]

There's a difference between simply reminding of the positives of McLeish's tenure to give some much needed perspective (his time here certainly hasn't been the utter disaster VT is making it out to be)...and 'defending him'. Those who can't see the difference are the ones who wanted to him to fail from the start and jump on the backs of anyone who doesn't have the same opinion as them.

[macandally]

There you go, I refer you to points 2 and 3 of my previous post. Within the same page!

There you go after ignoring posts from people like myself listing positives that don't include any of your points the said post???

There may well be more negatives than positives (a lot is down to opinion though) but there are some positives and untill you at least acknowledge them your arguments are never going to carry weight.

But whether you want to give him time or not it seems he will be given time, so it makes no difference if you choose to judge his performance now and other's choose to wait til the end of the season.

Addressing his negative aspects and playing a bit more football.

My counter argument, he is a fish out of water. None of his sides have played decent football, instead they have played a defensive minded game where they hold onto what they have got.

The reason he is making mistakes is that he is being asked to do somethign he has never done, play attractive, attacking football. That is, I suggest, why he doesnt pick the same team twice in succession, his tactics are all over the place and we have no cohesion.

[macandally]

There's a difference between simply reminding of the positives of McLeish's tenure to give some much needed perspective (his time here certainly hasn't been the utter disaster VT is making it out to be)...and 'defending him'. Those who can't see the difference are the ones who wanted to him to fail from the start and jump on the backs of anyone who doesn't have the same opinion as them.

Like me?

It is not a disaster, yet. The question is, is it not a disaster because of McLeish or despite of him?

Forums are all about opinions and I will readily argue why I see things the way I do but I cannot accept that we, or certain people, believe that mid table mediocrity is what we should settle for. Try telling that to Alan Pardew, or Mark Hughes. Winners want to win and can inspire others to do so.

If one of you, just one, can to me a reason why I should appreciate having McLeish at the club, sell the man to me, then I am open to listen. The problem is, the positives are thin on the ground and the argument in support of them is laboured. That is not being personal, it is the truth.

I think most people deep down know that he will take us nowhere, but only support him because he is the manager. That is not a reason, its blind devotion.

[holtelower]

Totally agree

I never wanted McLeish, I never even gave a thought about him before he came - I couldn't even dream he would end up here.

But he did.

Since that time, we have had some good, we have had some bad. But it seems to me that there is a section of fans that just hate him , and will never give him a chance.

I mean, people say "its not coz he came from Blues" - then just hurl total abuse , calling him a ginger this and ginger that..... it's embarrassing.

What I have seen so far is a bloke he has seen what the vast majority of fans have seen. A lot of over paid crap players taking this club for a ride. He has not been worried about dropping these players, and it is fairly obvious they will not be offerred contracts. Until July, there is not a lot he can do about that.

What he can do is what he is doing. Give the kids that we have heard so much about a chance. And, win lose or draw, let them show what they can do. Some have shown they seem good enough - Clark, Albrighton, Herd, Bannan and now Gardner have all shown they deserve a chance.

He has given others a chance and the jury is still out - Weimman , Fonz, Lichaj (although I think once fit he will be promoted upwards) , Baker and Lowry. Some of these may end up "finding their level".

It will then be up to McLeish to buy players to fit around these, as well as the experienced talent we hav like Bent, Gabby.

Until then, it will be up and down but he deserves a chance to show what he can do.

To me, it is no co-incidence that we have now won 4 out of 5 away, and we are crap at home - why ? - coz the players are shit scared of making a mistake because 20,000 people who are waiting for them to fail will get on their backs !!!!.

On Saturday,gardner made a mistake for their first goal, did his head go down, did the crowd boo - no ! - coz they are the true fans.

It seems to me, at least 20000 of our crowd go to Villa park just in the hope that they can boo McLeish.

It isn't McLeish who is killing Villa - it's YOU !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[snowychap]

I don't think many would suggest waiting longer in to seasons 2, 3 or 4 before making a judgement; I do know that it appears some on VT would prefer McLeish wasn't our manager regardless of Villa's results and/or performances.

Who cares how many people say it? The point is that people may well say it and it just becomes a subjective argument about 'when is the right time to judge' - immediately, from game to game, from month to month, 'when he is backed by the club', the end of season 1, after the chance to get rid of players and on and on.

On preferring it if he were not our manager: there may be some who still wouldn't want him if we were winning every game (though I doubt it would be more than one or two) but he was always going to be swimming against the tide to keep a proportion of the fans onside because of their concerns (whether justified or not) at the time of his appointment - whether those were to do with him coming from sha, what they thought of his style of football or what they thought about his record.

It's possible that we'll finish the season with similar results that we've seen to date, giving us around 47 points and a mid-table finish. It's debatable whether that is acceptable for our club even given the current restrictions. Cases for/against will grow stronger if our new manager's team finishes towards/above 50 points or below 45 points.

It is possible that any number of things may happen - that we go on a winnng run and finish with 60 or a long losing run and finish with 40 or we potter along and finish with 47.

I still don't particularly see why this is an argument that people must 'wait and see', indeed I see it as an argument for my initial comment that 'wait and see' is always an option until there are no longer any options.

As much as it is not possible to say whether we have 'turned the corner' based on a couple of decent results and performances, it's too early to judge McLeish based on half a season. I suspect I'd think differently if we were on 37 or 17 points after 22 games, but at 27 points this jury needs more evidence.

So, it's too early to judge McLeish after half a season but you'd think differently about judging him if we were doing better or worse?

Aren't you actually just saying that you, personally, can't come to a conclusion about him yet and therefore you're going to wait until the picture is clearer? If so then I have no problem with that. It's a perfectly reasonable position to take.

You seem though to have got that mixed up with when is the right time for other people to form an opinion - that because now is not the 'right time' for you (though it would be if he were clearly, to you, doing well or doing abysmally), it is not the right time for anyone.

I stand by my proposal that the end of one season is a suitable time to judge and that it takes courage and patience not to succumb to preconceptions, the need for instant success and knee-jerk reactions.

You seem to be just caricaturing (quite unfairly) people who don't have the same opinion as you, i.e. that the end of one season is a suitable time to judge.

To clarify mine, I'm unsure about him as manager (edit: or rather, how his time will turn out).

I'd like him to be successful because it would mean Villa were successful but if you were to push me I'd say that, in my opinion, it's unlikely especially within the constraints that he appears to be working (and I don't have much/any sympathy with him on these grounds as that appears to be the basis on which the job was offered and taken).

I think it was a bad appointment (for the swimming against the tide reason I mentioned above), that overall our results have been below par, that some of our performances have been utterly disgraceful (yes players take some blame but the manager has to take his fair share) but that, on occasions (as we did sometimes last year), we show that we still retain an ability to play well and make me bloody happy (such as the Chelsea result).

[Houlston]

You mention that one "outstanding" season at SHA, but even then they only finished 9th.

Only 9th? Come on, thats their highest league position for half a century, thats no mean achievement.

Aside from that all he's done at SHA is get them relegated.

And won them a cup.

Like others on here I didnt want him but I'm not going to dismiss things that he has done good as either nothing or not really that good.

[Mantis]

You mention that one "outstanding" season at SHA, but even then they only finished 9th.

Only 9th? Come on, thats their highest league position for half a century, thats no mean achievement.

Aside from that all he's done at SHA is get them relegated.

And won them a cup.

Like others on here I didnt want him but I'm not going to dismiss things that he has done good as either nothing or not really that good.

Yeah 9th is good if you're a team like SHA who are always battling relegation but we should be at least aiming for Europe.

I'm not dismissing the cup, it's just the negatives of his time there far outweigh the positives.

[keefa3011]

My impression of McLeish when Villa appointed him was one of a very average football manager. I saw him as a manager who took over a club and did well initially, before things went wrong when he had been given time to build his own squad.

I still don't think he was a wise choice by the decision makers at Villa, especially after they apparently stated that McLaren was ruled out of the running due to the fans reaction to him being a potential Villa manager.

However, McLeish is the Villa manager, and I hope he does well as that will mean that we will have done well too. If he can build a lasting legacy along with the likes of Bryan Jones, Tony McAndrew and Kevin MacDonald, then brilliant. If not, then I do fear where we are going to end up as a club. It wouldn't all be Big Ecks fault though!

[Zatman]

You mention that one "outstanding" season at SHA, but even then they only finished 9th.

with a team of Premier LEague rejects like phillips, Carr, Fahey, Ferguson, Ridgewell and Bowyer is pretty impressive

[Mantis]

You mention that one "outstanding" season at SHA, but even then they only finished 9th.

with a team of Premier LEague rejects like phillips, Carr, Fahey, Ferguson, Ridgewell and Bowyer is pretty impressive

And who signed those players?

[wiggyrichard]

You mention that one "outstanding" season at SHA, but even then they only finished 9th.

with a team of Premier LEague rejects like phillips, Carr, Fahey, Ferguson, Ridgewell and Bowyer is pretty impressive

And who signed those players?

Maybe because they were the only calibre of players he could afford or would go to the club. Still, to finish 9th with a crock of shit squad is a good achievement imo.

[Zatman]

he signed them excpet Ferguson when in Championship

[Big_John_10]

The positive moments are a cup win and doing well in Scotland. Neither of those really show he can build a premiership team that will do well.

Thats a better arguement.

But is countered by the fact that he got the Blues to 9th in the PL, their highest ever finish in the premier league, and their highest finish in the top league in England for over 50 years.

I said proof of building a premiership team that will do well.

He finished 9th, spent money on new players and got relegated for the 2nd time. How is that evidence he can build a good premiership team? If anything its proof that given time and money he will make a team worse.

And like with the cup, how is beating two prem teams and some lower league teams proof he can build a good premiership team?

There is more evidence to suggest mcleish will do nothing at villa but unfortunately i believe randy is perfectly happy with that. And this acceptance of mediocrity at our club won't change when fans are perfectly happy with shit football and average results as long as we beat a shit team every so often.

[NowDoINotLikeThat]

Birmingham had a relatively decent squad compared to some last season.

A decent manager would have kept them up easily

[Zatman]

they really didnt have that great a squad. good 1st Xi but squad was poor e.g when Dann got injured they faltered as replacement was poor

[Denis_B]

You know what? THis is all very boring now. Those that think he is a GC will continue to. Those that want to give him a chance will and all this squabbling ain't gonna change anyones views.

I have my view and have bitten the bullet and got tickets for QPR and Cittee so instead of watching on a steam can form a better view up close and personal.......my 12 month strike is over

[brommy]

I'll join Denis_B by agreeing this thread is very boring. It's like a stuck record. I know who doesn't want to give McLeish a chance because they've said as much for what seems a thousand times over and over. It's not surprising that their unyielding negativity hasn't changed anything. Until the full picture can be seen, I'm going to concentrate on other threads and giving as much support to my beloved club as I can muster.

[markavfc40]

I have my view and have bitten the bullet and got tickets for QPR and Cittee so instead of watching on a steam can form a better view up close and personal.......my 12 month strike is over

Good for you Denis. What was the last game you went to?

[KHV]

they really didnt have that great a squad. good 1st Xi but squad was poor e.g when Dann got injured they faltered as replacement was poor

You cant knock Dann's replacemnet, Curtis Davies is world class

[markavfc40]

it's just the negatives of his time there far outweigh the positives.

This is Sha you are talking about here. Look back at their history. Whilst relegations are par for the course for that tin pot mob a 9th place finish is an excellent achievement and to win a cup is a remarkable one.

It should also be remembered that he got them promoted after one of the relegations. McLeish's record at Sha, given the size of that club, contains way more good than bad.