The Arab Spring and "the War on Terror"

[peterms]

...I just think that there's more than enough to have a go at DC and the rest for than the Guardian's (and others') spurious inferences that it was terrible and underhand etc. that some reps from the arms industry who were on a plane that was essentially diverted to Egypt, were on the plane - In other words it's the spurious implication that the UK was trying to sell arms to Egypt, this week, that I have a problem with...

I don't think I get the problem you outline. I don't see that inference in the Guardian story. What I take from it is that there was a trip planned to the Gulf to sell arms (yes, not only arms, but arms is the point), that in the context of what's been happening this would look just a little inappropriate, and that the Egyptian stop-off was added in to make the trip look a bit better.

I don't see a suggestion that he was trying to sell arms to Egypt, and nor do I see that it would be worse to do that than to sell to many other people that we supply. I would have thought that anyone who disapproves of arms sales would be less unhappy with sales to Egypt today than a month ago, and I don't see either that there is an inference, or that such an inference would be more critical than the plain and simple facts of who we sell arms to and train (yes, not only since last May). It's our willingness to sell arms to some very dodgy regimes which is likely to make us look like we are propping them up against the interests of their people.

[Gringo]

Ive just watched Hagues press conference and Camerons Cariro and Kuwaiti speechs and i have to say im liking the responses from Cameron and Hague on all this. Im no fan of the conservatives, but for some reason I feel much more confident with these guys handling our foreign policy than Blair and Brown.

I must agree that I'd prefer hague in this situation to his shadow. In fact I'd prefer ken dodd and his ticklestick over hague's shadow.

[Jon]

Ive just watched Hagues press conference and Camerons Cariro and Kuwaiti speechs and i have to say im liking the responses from Cameron and Hague on all this. Im no fan of the conservatives, but for some reason I feel much more confident with these guys handling our foreign policy than Blair and Brown.

I must agree that I'd prefer hague in this situation to his shadow. In fact I'd prefer ken dodd and his ticklestick over hague's shadow.

Jim Murphy

Can't say I've ever heard of him.

You don't rate him Grings?

[drat01]

Ive just watched Hagues press conference and Camerons Cariro and Kuwaiti speechs and i have to say im liking the responses from Cameron and Hague on all this. Im no fan of the conservatives, but for some reason I feel much more confident with these guys handling our foreign policy than Blair and Brown.

Not surprisingly I disagree 100% with this. Hague, rightly so, is receiving a lot of condemnation for how we have reacted and it seems from the reports on the TV just that we cannot even count the number of people that BP managed to bring back. He is dithering with little in the way of any sort of direction or reassurance for the people stuck in Libya. Cameron continues to annoy with his opportunistic comments fed no doubt by Tory parters backers - 300K recently from arms dealers to the Tory party. I think both have come across as weak, but no doubt they will spin all of this to try and claim credit

Ineptitude of Hague and Cameron

Libya rescue mission criticised by trapped Britons

Plan to evacuate citizens from Libya criticised after government-chartered rescue plane breaks down at Gatwick airport

Foreign secretary William Hague's plan to evacuate British citizens from Libya came under heavy criticism after a rescue plane chartered by the government broke down at Gatwick airport and its departure delayed by more than nine hours.

Stranded Britons reported attacks by looters and shortages of food and water as anger grew at the government's slow response to the chaos engulfing Libya. The Foreign Office had said the Boeing 757 would take off at 12.30pm, but it was not until 10.15pm that officials reported that it had finally left for Tripoli. It will not arrive in Libya until Thursday .

On Wednesday 3,000 of the 10,000 Turkish citizens based in Libya set sail for home escorted by a Turkish navy frigate, and two French military planes have already brought 402 French nationals back to Paris. A Dutch military plane evacuated 82 people late on Tuesday, including 32 Dutch citizens and 50 people from other countries, including the UK.

"This is shameful," said the daughter of a British woman stuck in Tripoli, who asked not to be named for fear of undermining her mother's chance of evacuation. "OK, one plane can have technical fault but surely another should have left by now. I also don't understand why HMS Cumberland [stationed off the coast of Tripoli] has not been used. Not enough effort has gone into this and other countries have been much better."

Foreign Office minister Alistair Burt said:"Sometimes planes develop faults through nobody else's fault or error," he said. "We will hopefully get those planes out as quickly as possible."

Speaking later, an apparently rattled Hague said two scheduled flights had to be cancelled due to their operators deciding not to fly into Libya. A second flight was due to leave from Milan airport at 7.30pm, it said. Hague also announced a second ship would be sent.

The shadow foreign secretary, Douglas Alexander, called for the government to "take a grip" of its response.

"Given the speed with which other governments have acted, the British government appears to have been slow off the mark to ensure the safe return of British citizens," he said. "That has only been made worse by the long delay in even getting the promised flight off the ground."

Hague admitted the government's response had been less successful than for the crises in Egypt and Tunisia. "Everyone of these crises is different," he said. "Libya has turned out to be a more difficult case."

The delayed plane is a second embarrassment for Hague. On Monday he claimed he had information that Colonel Gaddafi was on his way to Venezuela when he in fact remained defiant in Libya.

James Coyle, an oil worker based between Tripoli and Benghazi, was critical of the government response.

"We told them the situation three days ago – they never even replied to us," he said. "We have been left without any protection whatsoever. We are living every day in fear of our lives as the local people are armed with AK45s and AK47s."

Hague tried on Wednesday lunchtime to reassert his control over the crisis by announcing the charter plane plan. He said around 500 Britons were stranded, and warned that 170 of them were working in isolated desert camps in the oilfields in "a perilous and frightening situation".

"Some we know have been subjected to attacks and looting," he said.

"We are working intensively on a range of options to secure their safe passage from Libya, working with other countries whose nationals are in the same position."

Britain was "one of very few" countries to have sent rapid deployment teams to Libya and had a "robust specialist presence on the ground which will be strengthened further tonight", he said. Staff have been deployed to Libya's border with Tunisia to help Britons who have made their way there. Hague did not rule out sending military planes, as Germany, Italy, the Netherlands and Ukraine have already done.

David Moore, a surveyor from High Wycombe working on Benghazi's new airport for SNC Lavalin, a Canadian company, is trapped with around 2,500 others in his camp which has been looted. Food is running out and he claimed a jet tried to bomb the airfield and was reportedly shot down.

"Two MiG 23s have attacked the runways (1700hrs)," he wrote in an email to his wife, Lynne. "I heard the bombs going off and one MiG was shot down and crashed south of here. The pilots ejected. Another tried at 1800hrs and the bombs went off well south of the runways … we sit here with our minders who are really just looking after their spoils of war. They have already stripped the site of everything and now they want to strip the camp. They are waiting for us to leave but I am sure they are getting fed up of waiting."

His Canadian colleague, John MacNab, wrote on Facebook: "We can't get to Tripoli via road unfortunately … far too dangerous right now and no planes landing at this airport. We are about a 20-minute walk to the runway but it's impossible to get to due to snipers and other lunatics."

Capita, the UK services firm which has been working on the airport, evacuated three UK-based staff by charter plane to Athens. BP, which has 40 expatriate workers in Libya, said it had evacuated their families and dependents.

Glen Mundy from the International School in Tripoli said the situation remained "very, very tense".

"There has been at night gunshots and minor explosions," he said, adding it had been difficult to get information from the Foreign Office on how they can leave the country. "We need to be informed better. We feel a little neglected. We feel as if other embassies are organising quicker."

Adam Bates, 37, a geophysicist exploring for PetroCanada near the Tunisian border in the north-west of the country, described how his camp was hit by looters at 4am on Monday.

"About 20 cars drove into the camp and they smashed the doors in of the temporary buildings and stole the office equipment, then they started smashing into the cars, hot-wired them and stole every vehicle," he said. "They broke into the clinic. We stayed in our trailer and locked the door. The local Libyan guys protected us. They were looting for four hours and when the morning came they left."

[Gringo]

Ive just watched Hagues press conference and Camerons Cariro and Kuwaiti speechs and i have to say im liking the responses from Cameron and Hague on all this. Im no fan of the conservatives, but for some reason I feel much more confident with these guys handling our foreign policy than Blair and Brown.

I must agree that I'd prefer hague in this situation to his shadow. In fact I'd prefer ken dodd and his ticklestick over hague's shadow.

Jim Murphy

Can't say I've ever heard of him.

You don't rate him Grings?

That's the shadow defence secretary not foreign office. I was actually thinking of the previous shadow foreign secretary whose primary qualification for office was being married to mr Balls.

[Jon]

Ive just watched Hagues press conference and Camerons Cariro and Kuwaiti speechs and i have to say im liking the responses from Cameron and Hague on all this. Im no fan of the conservatives, but for some reason I feel much more confident with these guys handling our foreign policy than Blair and Brown.

I must agree that I'd prefer hague in this situation to his shadow. In fact I'd prefer ken dodd and his ticklestick over hague's shadow.

Jim Murphy

Can't say I've ever heard of him.

You don't rate him Grings?

That's the shadow defence secretary not foreign office. I was actually thinking of the previous shadow foreign secretary whose primary qualification for office was being married to mr Balls.

Not the gorgeous Caroline Flint, Gringo?

EDIT: Ah no. Yvette Cooper.

Good shout.

[drat01]

Cameron now having to apologise for the shit job that he and Hague have done re Libya

Jokers - the pair of them

Prime Minister David Cameron has said he is "extremely sorry" for the government's handling of the evacuation of British nationals from Libya.

He said it had not been an easy situation and ministers needed to "learn the lessons".

It follows criticism of a slow government response to the crisis.

A plane chartered by oil companies for employees, with 78 passengers, has arrived at Gatwick and a government-chartered flight has also left Libya.

The prime minister said: "Of course I am extremely sorry. They have had a difficult time. The conditions at the airport have been extremely poor."

"There are going to be lessons to be learned from this and we will make absolutely sure that we learn them for the future but, right now, the priority has got to be getting those British nationals home," Mr Cameron said.

The prime minister said there had been "technical faults" with chartered flights.

He went on: "We will have a review to check whether it was technical faults or whether there is something systemically wrong.

"This is not an easy situation to deal with. It is immensely frustrating for the people on the ground and we will do everything we can to get those people home."

A flight chartered by oil companies arrived at Gatwick at about 0715 GMT.

Click to play

Click to play

British nationals have started to arrive home from protest-hit Libya

The airport said the plane carried 78 passengers. Earlier reports suggested more people had been on board.

A government-chartered flight, which left Tripoli at 0745 GMT, is now on its way back to the UK with a stop-over in Malta.

It is expected to land in the UK in the early evening.

A RAF Hercules C130 aircraft is also expected to return to the UK later with dozens of passengers. A second military plane is on standby in Malta if needed.

The Foreign Office said "a number of additional planes" could be sent to Libya throughout the day.

Meanwhile, the Ministry of Defence has confirmed that Royal Navy frigate HMS Cumberland is now at the entrance to the harbour in Benghazi.

It will help with the evacuation process if needed.

A meeting of Cobra, the government's emergency planning committee, is being chaired by Foreign Secretary William Hague.

Continue reading the main story

FOREIGN OFFICE HELPLINE

* UK nationals in Libya wishing to get on the charter flight are advised to call the following numbers:

* Gaddafi 'ordered Lockerbie bomb'

* Governments plan Libya evacuation

* Woman's 'traumatic' Libyan escape

* Student sit-in over Gaddafi cash

Helena Sheehan, 66, one of the passengers who landed at Gatwick earlier, said she had just experienced "some of the worst hours of her life".

"Libya is descending into hell," she said.

"The airport is like nothing I've ever seen in my whole life. It's absolute chaos. There's just thousands and thousands of people trying to get out."

The British Red Cross has deployed a team of volunteers to Gatwick airport to provide support to Britons being evacuated.

BBC security correspondent Frank Gardner said an SAS contingent has been put on standby for emergency deployment to parts of Libya, backed up by paratroopers of the Special Forces Support Group.

British oil workers

Our correspondent said: "With the situation for some British nationals in Libya fast deteriorating, it's part of a range of options being considered by the government to rescue those stranded in the North African country.

"Exact numbers and the locations of any staging areas are being kept secret but it's a scenario that British Special Forces have trained hard for - landing in the midst of a dangerous and chaotic situation then securing the safe passage out of stranded Britons, all hopefully without a shot being fired."

Several other countries, including France, Russia and the Netherlands have already evacuated some of their citizens.

UK nationals wishing to register an interest in flights out of Libya should call the following numbers: 020 7008 0000 from the UK or 021 3403644/45 from Libya.

The Foreign Office is advising against all but essential travel to Libya.

Around 3,500 Britons had been living in Libya before the crisis but most of those are thought to have left in recent days.

A woman is emotional as her husband arrives on a flight from Tripoli that was chartered by oil companies Passengers landing at Gatwick expressed relief to have left Libya

However, there is particular concern for some British oil workers thought to be stranded in isolated desert camps.

They are struggling to make contact because the phone networks have been disrupted and their supplies of food and water from Libyan cities are running out.

"Some we know have been subjected to attacks and looting. They are in a perilous and frightening situation," said Mr Hague.

After a week of upheaval in Libya, protesters backed by defecting army units are thought to have almost the entire eastern half of Libya under their control.

The country's beleaguered leader Colonel Muammar Gaddafi, who has been in power for 42 years, has vowed to fight to his "last drop of blood" rather than leave the country.

Earlier, Mr Hague told the BBC the "odds were stacking up" against Col Gaddafi, adding: "We have a government, or the remnant of a government, here which is prepared to use force and violence against its own people."

He said the Libyan leadership will be "held to account" for crimes against its people.

[Awol]

I agree that the official response to the crisis in Libya has been tardy at best, but anyone living/working in the Arab world should have their own plans to get the hell out of dodge if needs be.

That said good luck to the lads if they have to go in after the oil workers, that has the potential to go tits up spectacularly.

NATO Sec General has just announced policy of non-intervention re: Libya so it looks like the poor sods out in the streets are on there own.

[Risso]

I agree that the official response to the crisis in Libya has been tardy at best, but anyone living/working in the Arab world should have their own plans to get the hell out of dodge if needs be.

Well, exactly. If you're going to go and work somewhere extremely volatile at the best of times, in exchange for I assume, a whloe heap of tax free cash, you shouldn't then expect the government to rescue you within half an hour of it all going tits up.

[claret75]

Apparently, Gaddafi has blamed the uprising on Bin Laden, saying he's duping Gaddafi's youth with drugs and alcohol to take part in 'destuction and sabotage'. Haven't seen it, but was said in a TV interview.

[Awol]

Apparently, Gaddafi has blamed the uprising on Bin Laden, saying he's duping Gaddafi's youth with drugs and alcohol to take part in 'destuction and sabotage'. Haven't seen it, but was said in a TV interview.

But of course, Osama 'free love' Bin Laden is well known for encouraging such behaviour. He's special guest at Glastonbury this year too.

[blandy]

First it was the death of Benny Hill, then the End of the "Carry On" film series, then this Libya nastines, and NHS cuts - that poor "voluptuous, blonde, Ukranian nurse" that wikileaks revealed "assists" Gaddafi has bleak future prospects indeed.

[Gringo]

Well if the anna nicole smith opera goes on tour, they might need an understudy.

[legov]

Well if the anna nicole smith opera goes on tour, they might need an understudy.

Pun :?

[peterms]

I agree that the official response to the crisis in Libya has been tardy at best, but anyone living/working in the Arab world should have their own plans to get the hell out of dodge if needs be.

Well, exactly. If you're going to go and work somewhere extremely volatile at the best of times, in exchange for I assume, a whloe heap of tax free cash, you shouldn't then expect the government to rescue you within half an hour of it all going tits up.

Bit harsh. It might be reasonable to expect your company to have plans to get you out - I see BP have evacuated some people, but I don't know who employs the other oil workers - but I wouldn't expect individuals to have their own evacuation plans. Make your own way to the airport from town, yes, but out in a desert camp with no idea about safe routes and armed looters descending?

Beyond the oil workers, no doubt there will be teachers, people doing voluntary work, and others who aren't making loads but who are caught up in the situation. In the end, whether you're loaded or not, people do reasonably hope and expect help from the government if they are trapped in situations like this.

I don't expect anyone's thinking that miracles should have happened, but the questions being put, quite reasonably, are about why other countries seem to have managed to get their act together so much more quickly than us. Portugal and Poland have got some of our people out, which is great, but I don't imagine either would be at the top of the list of countries you'd expect to be geared up for rapid response to these things.

[theunderstudy]

Well if the anna nicole smith opera goes on tour, they might need an understudy.

Yes?

[Awol]

I agree that the official response to the crisis in Libya has been tardy at best, but anyone living/working in the Arab world should have their own plans to get the hell out of dodge if needs be.

Well, exactly. If you're going to go and work somewhere extremely volatile at the best of times, in exchange for I assume, a whloe heap of tax free cash, you shouldn't then expect the government to rescue you within half an hour of it all going tits up.

Bit harsh. It might be reasonable to expect your company to have plans to get you out - I see BP have evacuated some people, but I don't know who employs the other oil workers - but I wouldn't expect individuals to have their own evacuation plans. Make your own way to the airport from town, yes, but out in a desert camp with no idea about safe routes and armed looters descending?

Beyond the oil workers, no doubt there will be teachers, people doing voluntary work, and others who aren't making loads but who are caught up in the situation. In the end, whether you're loaded or not, people do reasonably hope and expect help from the government if they are trapped in situations like this.

I don't expect anyone's thinking that miracles should have happened, but the questions being put, quite reasonably, are about why other countries seem to have managed to get their act together so much more quickly than us. Portugal and Poland have got some of our people out, which is great, but I don't imagine either would be at the top of the list of countries you'd expect to be geared up for rapid response to these things.

Bottom line, the Arab world is no joke. If you're going to work there then you should have a very good idea of how you're getting out if you have to. For me plan A is overland in a 4x4 to Israel, plan B is a boat to Israel or Mumbai. If you are so naive that you expect the UK armed forces to come running to your rescue then you should have taken classes in risk assessment. The government has/is obliterating the capability of the armed forces to react to situations like this. Unless you are expecting 1st Battalion the Big Society to come and save your ass, then wise up and plan in advance.

[OutByEaster?]

Libya is reaching a strange sort of impasse.

In Egypt, the peoples will never wavered and their peaceful protest won through - in Libya, I sense that the peoples will to keep getting killed is wavering, it's madness and psychotic, but Gadaffi's plan to keep killing his own people until they stop protesting looks at the moment to me like it might work out for him.

That leaves the rest of the world in a bit of a pickle. Having sided with the people, what do we do when they aren't able to see this through on their own?

[Awol]

That leaves the rest of the world in a bit of a pickle. Having sided with the people, what do we do when they aren't able to see this through on their own?

Honestly? Order an enquiry, send a strongly worded letter expressing that we (the EU) really are rather angry...feck all basically.

Not sure about your conclusion though, in the East they have crossed the Rubicon and shed too much blood now to simply role over and face horrific reprisals. If Gaddafi siezes the initiative back then we're in for a long and bloody civil war.

Once we've got the foreign civpop evacuated the West should go all out to kill the bastard, and his sons. Without them in the picture the pro-democracy team will win through. We do have a strategic interest too given the amount of oil Europe sources from Libya.

[Gringo]

or maybe just put a few sanctions on the country