Houllier - released from contract with FFF

[Chindie]

A bit rich that, Drat, as anyone who's read a political thread in OT will attest. Particularly the first line, reeks of hypocrisy.

[drat01]

Managing Lyon isn't that impressive. Lyon have had some absolute dross manage them over the years and still had that period of being absolutely dominant - Alain Perrin is one of their most successful managers, Paul Le Guen is too, both of which were **** shite in Britain. I really wouldn't quote success with Lyon as a boon for Houllier.

Really it isn't that good? - Hmm I suppose their record in their domestic league must count for nowt then or their performances of late in the Chnaps league. Perrin had a few months at Portsmouth I really don't think you can judge how good a manager is based on that - to say he was "**** shite" is a massive over exaggeration. Le Guen - Had a bad time at Rangers, so that makes him a "**** shite" manager does it? I wonder then as Jol was sacked by Spurs that makes him a bad manager?

and he's been out of the managing lark for a while and, for a man who himself said he was hankering to come back to management, doesn't appear to have been beating off offers with a stick, shall we say.

but he said he had received various offers but turned them down. The only one to date he has accepted is off us. Maybe, just maybe we are a good club and he realises it?

Ah well I am sure a million one "told you" posts are being cut and pasted ready to be blasted on VT as we speak.

I'd still like to know who was better who we missed though .............

[drat01]

A bit rich that, Drat, as anyone who's read a political thread in OT will attest. Particularly the first line, reeks of hypocrisy.

Tut tut tut

[Richard]

Being Wolfsburg's first choice doesn't really mean a lot - Wolfsburg, despite being exponentially better over the last couple of seasons, aren't really that big of a team, at all. Houlliers turning them down means about as much to us as them hiring McCLaren does. In fact Wolfsburg going for him probably states that he's not the great catch he's made out to be, Wolfsburg were a bit stumped as to who to get IIRC.

Managing Lyon isn't that impressive. Lyon have had some absolute dross manage them over the years and still had that period of being absolutely dominant - Alain Perrin is one of their most successful managers, Paul Le Guen is too, both of which were **** shite in Britain. I really wouldn't quote success with Lyon as a boon for Houllier.

Similarly, his Liverpool tenure isn't that impressive. He achieved little with Liverpool that wasn't already par for the course for them in the League (bar 1 season where they finished second, their previous Prem high being a couple of thirds IIRC), he steadily kept them top 4 for most of his tenure, which isn't that difficult really considering the size and finances of Liverpool. His Cup wins aren't without critique either - they fluked the FA Cup final where Owen, at that time a genius, nicked it on his own after complete Arsenal domination. And their course to the final was beyond simple, the draw being very, very kind. The same can be said of the League Cup, where even the final was pathetically easy against Small Heath. Only the UEFA Cup draw saw any difficulty for him, playing the likes of Porto and Barca, but I'm unsure how difficult these teams were in 2001, besides which the competition was a very, very different beast to what it is today, 13 matches to the final (I think) compared to 19 for Fulham last season.

And being involved with UEFA technically... well, does that really mean much? It appears he gained the favour of the FFF following his early successes in France (again, with a big team, PSG) and has sort of hung around since. He's never been more than a technical director.

He's not a bad manager but I really would stop well short of thinking he's some kind of coup. All of his successes have come with massive clubs, which thusly means little to us with regards success, and he's been out of the managing lark for a while and, for a man who himself said he was hankering to come back to management, doesn't appear to have been beating off offers with a stick, shall we say.

I hope he's successful, but I really doubt he will be, he may get lucky in a cup I guess but he's not going to lead us to the CL or anything of the sort simply because, right now, we're Randy Lerner's Aston Villa and he doesn't have to clout to compete with Citeh or Tottenham. It would've taken a lot of luck to take us further anyway, along with careful smaller investment, with any manager, but it now looks decidedly like it's going to be reliant on luck alone, as the soundtrack to the club at the moment appears to be 'Ooooo, that's expensive, best not eh?'.

Regardless, I hope he's successful and I somewhat look forward to seeing what he does with us. But we need to stop making out he's some fantastic coup for us, because he isn't. We pinched the French technical director, eventually, a man who had some success with enormous sides that, imo at least, make his CV look better than it really is, and one who's been out of the managerial game for 6 years and left Liverpool as somewhat of a laughable figure.

Absolutely agree with all of that, and I still hope he is the most successful manager in our history

[TrentVilla]

Being Wolfsburg's first choice doesn't really mean a lot - Wolfsburg, despite being exponentially better over the last couple of seasons, aren't really that big of a team, at all. Houlliers turning them down means about as much to us as them hiring McCLaren does. In fact Wolfsburg going for him probably states that he's not the great catch he's made out to be, Wolfsburg were a bit stumped as to who to get IIRC.

Managing Lyon isn't that impressive. Lyon have had some absolute dross manage them over the years and still had that period of being absolutely dominant - Alain Perrin is one of their most successful managers, Paul Le Guen is too, both of which were **** shite in Britain. I really wouldn't quote success with Lyon as a boon for Houllier.

Similarly, his Liverpool tenure isn't that impressive. He achieved little with Liverpool that wasn't already par for the course for them in the League (bar 1 season where they finished second, their previous Prem high being a couple of thirds IIRC), he steadily kept them top 4 for most of his tenure, which isn't that difficult really considering the size and finances of Liverpool. His Cup wins aren't without critique either - they fluked the FA Cup final where Owen, at that time a genius, nicked it on his own after complete Arsenal domination. And their course to the final was beyond simple, the draw being very, very kind. The same can be said of the League Cup, where even the final was pathetically easy against Small Heath. Only the UEFA Cup draw saw any difficulty for him, playing the likes of Porto and Barca, but I'm unsure how difficult these teams were in 2001, besides which the competition was a very, very different beast to what it is today, 13 matches to the final (I think) compared to 19 for Fulham last season.

And being involved with UEFA technically... well, does that really mean much? It appears he gained the favour of the FFF following his early successes in France (again, with a big team, PSG) and has sort of hung around since. He's never been more than a technical director.

He's not a bad manager but I really would stop well short of thinking he's some kind of coup. All of his successes have come with massive clubs, which thusly means little to us with regards success, and he's been out of the managing lark for a while and, for a man who himself said he was hankering to come back to management, doesn't appear to have been beating off offers with a stick, shall we say.

I hope he's successful, but I really doubt he will be, he may get lucky in a cup I guess but he's not going to lead us to the CL or anything of the sort simply because, right now, we're Randy Lerner's Aston Villa and he doesn't have to clout to compete with Citeh or Tottenham. It would've taken a lot of luck to take us further anyway, along with careful smaller investment, with any manager, but it now looks decidedly like it's going to be reliant on luck alone, as the soundtrack to the club at the moment appears to be 'Ooooo, that's expensive, best not eh?'.

Regardless, I hope he's successful and I somewhat look forward to seeing what he does with us. But we need to stop making out he's some fantastic coup for us, because he isn't. We pinched the French technical director, eventually, a man who had some success with enormous sides that, imo at least, make his CV look better than it really is, and one who's been out of the managerial game for 6 years and left Liverpool as somewhat of a laughable figure.

Absolutely agree with all of that, and I still hope he is the most successful manager in our history

That about covers my feelings on it as well.

[LondonLax]

Absolutely agree with all of that, and I still hope he is the most successful manager in our history

Whay do you keep saying that over and over again?

[Maradona10]

So basically your saying he's a lucky manager.

[Richard]

Absolutely agree with all of that, and I still hope he is the most successful manager in our history

Whay do you keep saying that over and over again?

So that I do not get the , frankly, rubbish comments on here that I want Villa to lose to prove a point or that I am negative on all things Villa, or get lumped into some anti Villa group that some posters seem keen on doing. Of cousrse none of that ever happens does it.

[villa89]

Being Wolfsburg's first choice doesn't really mean a lot -

...

and left Liverpool as somewhat of a laughable figure.

Another great post from Chindie, not a lot to add apart from the fact the houllier will in all likeihood have the team play in a very boring style.

[Chindie]

Really it isn't that good? - Hmm I suppose their record in their domestic league must count for nowt then or their performances of late in the Chnaps league. Perrin had a few months at Portsmouth I really don't think you can judge how good a manager is based on that - to say he was "**** shite" is a massive over exaggeration. Le Guen - Had a bad time at Rangers, so that makes him a "**** shite" manager does it? I wonder then as Jol was sacked by Spurs that makes him a bad manager?

Lyon dominated France for years, because they had the money and they had the players, it wasn't difficult to win things with them. It'd be like a slightly better standard of Scottish football but with one of Rangers or Celtic vanished off the face of the earth. Anyone not incompetent could have won the title with them. It's only as their team has aged, and other clubs have truly gotten their act together, that Lyon have fallen away somewhat. I doubt it'll be too long before they are back. Regardless, winning things from them isn't that difficult.

Hence why I quoted Perrin, a man who was woeful at Portsmouth and wasn't exactly amazing in France either, despite being reasonably well held. Le Guen being a failure in Scotland is damning in my opinion - any manager worth their salt should be able to be at least competent with Rangers. Neither were raving successes anywhere but Lyon, and thusly I sincerely doubt the merit of saying 'Oh, Houllier was a success with those giants, Lyon'. I daresay Ian Holloway would be too at that period in time.

but he said he had received various offers but turned them down. The only one to date he has accepted is off us. Maybe, just maybe we are a good club and he realises it?

Ah well I am sure a million one "told you" posts are being cut and pasted ready to be blasted on VT as we speak.

I'd still like to know who was better who we missed though .............

A club so good he reckons we're 7th-12th material? Hmm... I think it's more likely he's got a somewhat decent ego and fancied having a crack at a good league again, if he genuinely was beating off offers.

Your last line is pathetic. My inability to know all of the worlds managers and their current predicaments doesn't by default mean Houllier is the best we could have gotten.

[Davies4England]

Being Wolfsburg's first choice doesn't really mean a lot - Wolfsburg, despite being exponentially better over the last couple of seasons, aren't really that big of a team, at all. Houlliers turning them down means about as much to us as them hiring McCLaren does. In fact Wolfsburg going for him probably states that he's not the great catch he's made out to be, Wolfsburg were a bit stumped as to who to get IIRC.

I will just pick up on this. Wolfsburg is a very prestigious job, they have a very impressive scouting system built up at the club, they have a fine stadium and are extremely well financed by VW. To say they were stumped as to get is totally wrong. The manager job there is of the most attractive options out there for most managers. Of course following on from Magath you have big shoes to fill, but if they did approach Houllier then it says something about his reputation in Europe. However now they have another excellent manager in McLaren who wasn't short of offers himself.

They aren't a big team, but they are a team with massive potential and that is all that matters nowadays.

[Richard]

My inability to know all of the worlds managers and their current predicaments doesn't by default mean Houllier is the best we could have gotten.

To be honest it was a line well used on VT by a lot of people in the last months of DOL. When people wanted DOL out the argument was "who else could we get" and a lot used Strachan as an example of why we should keep DOL.

It is interesting that it has surfaced again.

I also think the appeal of Plop in freefall and managing a club that he could potentially take to above them (ie being aina battle with plop) is also part of the appeal for him in that he wants to get one over on them and answer a few critics from his days with them

[Morley_crosses_to_Withe]

It's ridiculous to say that Houllier wasn't the best manager available, but then not be able to, at the very least, suggest one or two names who you think we could have gotten.

Nobody is expecting you to name every manager in World football, but at least make some suggestions.

For two avid football fans who have thousands and thousands of posts between you on a football forum, I'm surprised you can't apply a bit of knowledge and logic to suggest a few names.

Here you go, I'll make it easier:

We can't go for the top tier managers - so rule out Mourniho, Hiddink, Del Bosque & Co.

Now, I'm sure we probably couldn't attract a manager who is not necessairly in that top group, but whose side is currently in the CL - so rule out Jol, Redknapp, Emery (Valencia), Mclaren and so on.

I guess you could be thinking managers of national European sides - so perhaps people like Bilic (Croatia), Advocaat (Russia), Quieroz (Portugal), Antic (Serbia) and so on.

Or how about European based managers whose teams are in the Europa League cup (although as we're not in this competition I think it would be hard to attract a manager whose current team is), but here's some names anyway....Flores (Atletico), Rutten (PSV), Mazzari (Napoli), Stuttgart (Gross), Garrido (Villarreal).

Now, simply apply some logic and think about their success as a manager, who they currently manage, whether you think they'd be willing to leave their current team and pick out a few names.

In my opinion, apart from the top, top managers - there's hardly any names there (and I've picked out managers from some top clubs) whose trophy haul/experience/knowledge and so forth stands up to that of Houllier's.

[Maradona10]

Chindie, I share some of your sentiments but to knock his trophy wins in England and basically state it was luck is a bit of a cop-out, he won the Uefa Cup by knocking out Barcelona en route and you mention the finals, but did he not beat United in a final, something our previous manager failed to do. The General mentioned it, the time of our manager killed us getting a new manager in, we could have offered the world to Moyes, he would not have left Everton at that stage of the season, Martin Jol has just guided his team into the Champions League and would also not have left, now we look at the managers remaining, its a bunch of managers who have had successes and between them the differences are marginal. What i will say is if MON left at the end of last season, we would have had someone different to Houllier, this appointment was all down to the timing, but do not knock a manager for his previous successes, as you know when people questioned the successes of MON which we both defended, they could easily use the same brush i.e. winning competitions in a micky mouse league, only won the League Cup.

[Chindie]

Being Wolfsburg's first choice doesn't really mean a lot - Wolfsburg, despite being exponentially better over the last couple of seasons, aren't really that big of a team, at all. Houlliers turning them down means about as much to us as them hiring McCLaren does. In fact Wolfsburg going for him probably states that he's not the great catch he's made out to be, Wolfsburg were a bit stumped as to who to get IIRC.

I will just pick up on this. Wolfsburg is a very prestigious job, they have a very impressive scouting system built up at the club, they have a fine stadium and are extremely well financed by VW. To say they were stumped as to get is totally wrong. The manager job there is of the most attractive options out there for most managers. Of course following on from Magath you have big shoes to fill, but if they did approach Houllier then it says something about his reputation in Europe. However now they have another excellent manager in McLaren who wasn't short of offers himself.

They aren't a big team, but they are a team with massive potential and that is all that matters nowadays.

Wolfsburg are the team I favour in Germany, so I know about them.

It's not a prestigious job, they're somewhat of a nothing team who happen to be very well backed these days, being effectively VW FC.

I wouldn't say it's one of the most attractive options out there by any means at all. Any manager that goes there will have a fair amount of money but sadly, they're Wolfsburg. By German standards they're minnows who are rich.

They were stumped as far as my awareness goes as they realised they'd got a bit lucky in poaching Magath (who's swift leaving says as much as you'd like to know about how 'prestigious' the Wolfsburg job is really imo) and would struggle to replace him, turning initially to the former Stuttgart manager Veh, and now finally McClaren who is a burgeoning talent in European eyes but hardly a massive coup again.

Wolfsburg might yet become a major player in Germany, though I doubt it simply because of their mall origins, but they aren't yet. Taking over them is a bit like taking over... Spurs say. Might be big some day, and have some money and some success... but not there yet.

All off topic anyway. Agree to disagree if you don't follow this train fo thought.

[drat01]

A club so good he reckons we're 7th-12th material? Hmm... I think it's more likely he's got a somewhat decent ego and fancied having a crack at a good league again, if he genuinely was beating off offers.

Your last line is pathetic. My inability to know all of the worlds managers and their current predicaments doesn't by default mean Houllier is the best we could have gotten.

Oh more tut tut tut - its not pathetic as MCTW quite rightly points out in his post above. The fact that you chose to offer any alternatives when from your posts you have seemingly a fair knowledge of European football is pretty poor.

As for the 7-12 thing that you often want to beat him up on, now as you well know that is a fair comment based on our league positions. It's a shame that you are happy to quote fact after fact on GH and his record at other clubs but are seemingly head in the sand mode when it comes to out own club.

Another thing of note in your posts, MON what did he ever win? By your reasoning we can easily forget his record based in Scotland as the quality of that league is far below even that of France. His record in England was what exactly? A couple of league cup wins and he had been out of the English game for ......... oh that's right 6 years when he joined us - including a year completely away from the game when the man was doing the very honourable thing of looking after his sick wife. Maybe then we should not have employed him? After all his style of football was never known for flair.

Why don't people just give GH at least a bit of a chance, and that is not a few games its the rest of this season at the very very least.

[Chindie]

Chindie, I share some of your sentiments but to knock his trophy wins in England and basically state it was luck is a bit of a cop-out, he won the Uefa Cup by knocking out Barcelona en route and you mention the finals, but did he not beat United in a final, something our previous manager failed to do. The General mentioned it, the time of our manager killed us getting a new manager in, we could have offered the world to Moyes, he would not have left Everton at that stage of the season, Martin Jol has just guided his team into the Champions League and would also not have left, now we look at the managers remaining, its a bunch of managers who have had successes and between them the differences are marginal. What i will say is if MON left at the end of last season, we would have had someone different to Houllier, this appointment was all down to the timing, but do not knock a manager for his previous successes, as you know when people questioned the successes of MON which we both defended, they could easily use the same brush i.e. winning competitions in a micky mouse league, only won the League Cup.

He beat Manchester United in the Community Shield, a match Manchester United dominated but Liverpools backs to the wall approach won out. He also beat them in the league a couple of times.

It wasn't solely luck, he had a good team that was blessed with talents which helped enormously, which imo again doesn't say much for us (we don't have an Owen for instance), but those domestic routes were just pathetic.

I'm loathe to mention O'Neill but I will say this for his record - I was more impressed by his work with Leicester than Celtic, and I find his wins with Leicester more impressive than Houllier's with Liverpool, simply because winning something with Leicester is an achievement and a half, winning something with Liverpool is almost expected as one of the countries biggest sides.

[Chindie]

Oh more tut tut tut - its not pathetic as MCTW quite rightly points out in his post above. The fact that you chose to offer any alternatives when from your posts you have seemingly a fair knowledge of European football is pretty poor.

As for the 7-12 thing that you often want to beat him up on, now as you well know that is a fair comment based on our league positions. It's a shame that you are happy to quote fact after fact on GH and his record at other clubs but are seemingly head in the sand mode when it comes to out own club.

Another thing of note in your posts, MON what did he ever win? By your reasoning we can easily forget his record based in Scotland as the quality of that league is far below even that of France. His record in England was what exactly? A couple of league cup wins and he had been out of the English game for ......... oh that's right 6 years when he joined us - including a year completely away from the game when the man was doing the very honourable thing of looking after his sick wife. Maybe then we should not have employed him? After all his style of football was never known for flair.

Why don't people just give GH at least a bit of a chance, and that is not a few games its the rest of this season at the very very least.

Last post I ever reply to you Drat, because I think it's quite clear we've a distain for each other thats barely worth entertaining.

I know a lot about players and sides, I don't know that much about managers off the top of my head, bar a few cases. Put simply, I've neither the time nor the inclination to look carefully at the state of world football and say who we should have gotten. And I don't think it's as easy as simply looking at whatever people have won as VCTM wants to do, I think you need to look a lot deeper than that and I won't be doing it, but will say that in all those clubs, there has to be someone we could have took an educated punt on. Instead we played we it cheap imo and played it incredibly safe.

Get that into your head.

I have never felt that 7th-12th comment was fair, I've explained how before.

I've explained the MON stuff above.

Now, I think it might be best if we just have a mental block over each others posts.

[KT3AVFC]

It's ridiculous to say that Houllier wasn't the best manager available, but then not be able to, at the very least, suggest one or two names who you think we could have gotten.

Nobody is expecting you to name every manager in World football, but at least make some suggestions.

For two avid football fans who have thousands and thousands of posts between you on a football forum, I'm surprised you can't apply a bit of knowledge and logic to suggest a few names.

Here you go, I'll make it easier:

We can't go for the top tier managers - so rule out Mourniho, Hiddink, Del Bosque & Co.

Now, I'm sure we probably couldn't attract a manager who is not necessairly in that top group, but whose side is currently in the CL - so rule out Jol, Redknapp, Emery (Valencia), Mclaren and so on.

I guess you could be thinking managers of national European sides - so perhaps people like Bilic (Croatia), Advocaat (Russia), Quieroz (Portugal), Antic (Serbia) and so on.

Or how about European based managers whose teams are in the Europa League cup (although as we're not in this competition I think it would be hard to attract a manager whose current team is), but here's some names anyway....Flores (Atletico), Rutten (PSV), Mazzari (Napoli), Stuttgart (Gross), Garrido (Villarreal).

Now, simply apply some logic and think about their success as a manager, who they currently manage, whether you think they'd be willing to leave their current team and pick out a few names.

In my opinion, apart from the top, top managers - there's hardly any names there (and I've picked out managers from some top clubs) whose trophy haul/experience/knowledge and so forth stands up to that of Houllier's.

Well said sir!

It's a total cop out to criticise the Board for appointing Houiller and then decline to name someone who they could and should have appointed instead. Houiller wasn't my dream appointment but I accept that in the circumstances in which we found ourselves he was probably the best appointment we could make.

[Maradona10]

Chindie, I share some of your sentiments but to knock his trophy wins in England and basically state it was luck is a bit of a cop-out, he won the Uefa Cup by knocking out Barcelona en route and you mention the finals, but did he not beat United in a final, something our previous manager failed to do. The General mentioned it, the time of our manager killed us getting a new manager in, we could have offered the world to Moyes, he would not have left Everton at that stage of the season, Martin Jol has just guided his team into the Champions League and would also not have left, now we look at the managers remaining, its a bunch of managers who have had successes and between them the differences are marginal. What i will say is if MON left at the end of last season, we would have had someone different to Houllier, this appointment was all down to the timing, but do not knock a manager for his previous successes, as you know when people questioned the successes of MON which we both defended, they could easily use the same brush i.e. winning competitions in a micky mouse league, only won the League Cup.

He beat Manchester United in the Community Shield, a match Manchester United dominated but Liverpools backs to the wall approach won out. He also beat them in the league a couple of times.

It wasn't solely luck, he had a good team that was blessed with talents which helped enormously, which imo again doesn't say much for us (we don't have an Owen for instance), but those domestic routes were just pathetic.

I'm loathe to mention O'Neill but I will say this for his record - I was more impressed by his work with Leicester than Celtic, and I find his wins with Leicester more impressive than Houllier's with Liverpool, simply because winning something with Leicester is an achievement and a half, winning something with Liverpool is almost expected as one of the countries biggest sides.

http://tiny.cc/0cyrp

Wrong game Chindie.