Barry Bannan

[Villa87]

My opinion is that Barry Bannan is a woeful crosser of the ball

 

Bannan is the best crosser in the Premier League. That is a fact.

 

You cannot get a more classic case of bias dictating perception than your statement Bannan is "a woeful crosser of the ball".

 

Sell Bannan to another club, they will get the best crosser in the Premier League. That is why we won't sell him.

 

 

[Con]

Yeah I'm looking at them, I can't see anything that provides anything concrete with regard to your claim. It would be better if we had a cross to goal ratio because I would dispute what a successful cross is? Is it a diagonal ball to Benteke, who has a high chance of connecting with it, but zero chance of scoring? Is it a cross that's directly resulted in a header/shot at goal?

 

Off the top of my head I can remember one Bannan cross being converted (v Newcastle IIRC), out of 114 in total. 

 

Edit - it's all been covered above^ 

 

In summary I'd want a cross to goal ratio. I'd don't like stats that are too subjective. 

 

You have to compare players yourself until they do a separate table for crossing accuracy.

 

Take a look at the "key passes" stat. That shows the really good passes which lead to a chance. Not exclusive to crosses but relevant to your interest in goal scoring opportunities.

[Folski]

They don't have a stat for creating key chances for the opposition

[Kingfisher]

Yeah I'm looking at them, I can't see anything that provides anything concrete with regard to your claim. It would be better if we had a cross to goal ratio because I would dispute what a successful cross is? Is it a diagonal ball to Benteke, who has a high chance of connecting with it, but zero chance of scoring? Is it a cross that's directly resulted in a header/shot at goal?

 

Off the top of my head I can remember one Bannan cross being converted (v Newcastle IIRC), out of 114 in total. 

 

Edit - it's all been covered above^ 

 

In summary I'd want a cross to goal ratio. I'd don't like stats that are too subjective. 

 

You have to compare players yourself until they do a separate table for crossing accuracy.

 

Take a look at the "key passes" stat. That shows the really good passes which lead to a chance. Not exclusive to crosses but relevant to your interest in goal scoring opportunities.

Yeah I don't hate Bannan like some on here, I think there is something there to nurture, but 'best crosser in the Premiership - fact', seems a little bold. You've shown me nothing to back up that claim yet. 

[GarethRDR]

I've already debunked that one.

Not really.  These statistics you keep hammering lack one crucial thing; context.  As Folski et al are alluding to, without context (e.g. how many of Bannan's crosses are whipped into the more dangerous areas around the 6 yard box versus how many are floated to wider areas that might hit a Villa player and be considered a "successful" cross but pose less of a threat) the insight gleaned from such statistics are fallible.  In addition, as Stevo has stated there are far more vital attributes that one should look for in a central midfielder than the ability to cross, attributes that Bannan is often found wanting.  Furthermore, in those games that Bannan has played out on the wing he has also proved to be somewhat ineffective.  

 

If you want to talk about statistics, then here's one; in the 82 appearances Barry Bannan has made for this club across all competitions, he has 7 assists to his name, of which 3 have come from crosses - one for Agbonlahor vs Newcastle last season, one for Clark vs Newcastle this season and one for Clark vs Blackburn two seasons ago.

 

What I do agree with is that he's the current scapegoat du jour, but by the same token that doesn't mean his performances are of a quality that we can rely on consistently at this level.

Edited April 5, 2013 by GarethRDR

[CottenM]

Good points GarethRDR
Do we know what counts as a successful cross?
I bet the high hanging one to the edge of the box that Benteke barely gets his head on and it goes out of play that count.
I'd prefer an "unsuccessful" one in to a dangerous area that forces a defender to put it behind

Don't know what happened to Barry, used to have a great set piece if nothing else, not really sure what the point of him is right now.
Shame.

[Grievemeister]

IMO you cannot play Bannan in a  442 in the PL. Its gets shoved off the ball to easy. You put him in  a 5 man midfield as an attacking midfielder I believe he'll do the business. His short passing is as good as any player and he is creative, but he needs that support from the midfield.

 

In all honesty Savage had a point what he said on MOD. Our midfielders dont get to support our strikers enough, I think he should be the player to move forward when we break. Westwood to spray the passes from teh middle & Sylla to control defensive side of the midfield. At the moment the midfield arent doing any of these things, they aret getting forward or helping the defence enough to stop us leaking goals. This maybe an option. Like Liverpool did with Gerrard, Alonso and Mascherano.

[Con]

In all honesty Savage had a point what he said on MOD. Our midfielders dont get to support our strikers enough, I think he should be the player to move forward when we break. Westwood to spray the passes from teh middle & Sylla to control defensive side of the midfield. At the moment the midfield arent doing any of these things, they aret getting forward or helping the defence enough to stop us leaking goals. This maybe an option. Like Liverpool did with Gerrard, Alonso and Mascherano.

 

That's only a problem for the counter attack. 

 

Bannan or Westwood or Delph are not goalscorers who attack the box, they want to be nearer  the half-way line controlling the game.

 

Villa squad doesn't have a depth of player in that role. Gary Gardner gets forward but he's injured. So could Petrov have done that. Carruthers perhaps.

 

One problem we have in possession, we don't have strikers who get back and support the midfield well enough.

 

The modern game is all about possession.

 

You have playmaking defenders who support the attack, and playmaking forwards who retreat over the half-way line (watch Rooney and Suarez) when you have possession, to take ball possession directly from the CBs to distribute it upfield (better than the CB would).

 

We do have a modern playmaking defender (Clark) but we don't have a dynamic forward who gets back and mixes it up. Benteke holds the ball up but doesn't do long range passing. Weimann's distribution isn't good enough yet, neither is Agbonlahor's.

 

As a result the good sides our team is very rigid - it has three layers FW/MD/DF which don't interchange much. The team can only play one way.

 

 

Against the weaker sides we can control possession for periods with our fairly static back 4 and midfield but against stronger teams, or when we have a bad patch, we can only counter attack with our three fast forwards (a one-shot deal because we don't have the players to support it).

 

Since playmaking is increasingly done by defenders and forwards I'm thinking now it is probably best for Bannan to be on the left of midfield in the Iniesta role, where we can make use of his crossing. He can drift inside every now and then like Iniesta. 

 

Westwood is more similar to Xavi, who is a glorified get and giver (rarely crosses), so should be in midfield. 

 

The defensive midfielders have crowded-out the midfield playmaker (like Gazza, and Bannan when he plays) so you are left with the Xavi role.

 

If we want to control possession like a modern team we need a forward who retreats to support the midfield - not a midfield playmaker - and a talent on the wings who does not waste possession - that can be Bannan.

[AshVilla]

How can you put Gazza and Bannan in the same bracket?

 

[GarethRDR]

Alcohol consumption? 

[AVFCforever1991]

[AstonMartin82]

Opta have published some stats on crossing.

 

Most Successful Crosses from open play

 

 

And Highest Percentage of Successful Crosses

 

 

It's really strange... but Barry "Best Crosser in the Premier League[1]" Bannan doesn't feature.

 

Weird.

 

 

[1] Con 2013

 

They must have a filter that excludes Bannan from the list. 

 

Bannan is still on about 40%.

 

Edit: the filter is minimum starts. Bannan has 12 starts. The others are about +19 starts.

 

There is a reason why Opta, the statistical geniuses, sent these stats out filtered by starts. That reason being that anyone who has had 12 or less starts are more inaccurate due to the volatility of the stats.

 

50% successful crosses from 2 is no where near as impressive as 30% successful crosses from 300.

 

Why is a central midfielder being judged on crosses? He hardly ever crosses or gets in a position to cross successfully anyway. I think we're a very narrow team full stop.    

 

Because there is no other argument to have him in the team. An excellent point - in fact, maybe this is why Opta didn't include Bannan in the stats. It's absolutely pointless judging a central midfielder by crossing.

 

Bannan's one assist this season came from a cross when he was on the left wing side of the penalty box.

 

When we are chasing the game and dominating possession close to the box we should put Bannan on the wing.

 

Bennett has put in a few nice crosses but when he gets forward to do so we leave a gap behind which can be exploited if his cross is off target.

 

When we are dominating possession? 

Keep Bannan on the ready for those 50 minutes of football during the season.

 

Some of the lamenting of young players on this board is just boring and embarrassing. It doesn't remotely help having such a negative attitude towards inexperienced players looking for confidence in order to keep us in the league.

 

Get behind the team - every one of them. The Champions League winning central midfielder for a manager sees him every day and knows more about what is needed in that position than everybody in this thread put together. I suspect if he didn't have such a large number of people waiting for him to fail at Villa Park every week he'd be more successful in his role.

 

Get a grip.

 

There is so much wrong with this post I simply don't know where to start.

 

Firstly, there is nothing worse on a forum than an I'm holier than thou approach. That's a hell of a lot more boring and embarrassing than a debate regarding a controversial football player. If you think you'll be happier than me tomorrow evening if we get 3 points tomorrow then you are very very mistaken.

 

Secondly, blindly following a football team and repressing your opinion is a very stupid and one dimensional approach.

 

Thirdly, Bannan is not inexperienced. This is his 5th year in the first team and every single person at Villa Park and at this forum supported him when he broke into the first team. We were all patient and waited with baited breath for him to develop. However, he hasn't developed and many, if not most, have come to the opinion that he simply isn't good enough for the first team after watching his 61 performances.

 

Fourthly, Lambert, the CL Winning midfielder has been at the club a number of months. He is barely in phase 1 of sorting the team out and there will be many changes in the coming transfer windows. Most of which I would imagine would be in midfield as this is very clearly our weakest position. Bannan is the weakest link in that weakest position.

 

Fifthly, would you support me if I pulled on a shirt and played week in and week out at VP? If so you'd be a **** idiot.

 

My opinion is that Barry Bannan is a woeful crosser of the ball

 

Bannan is the best crosser in the Premier League. That is a fact.

 

You cannot get a more classic case of bias dictating perception than your statement Bannan is "a woeful crosser of the ball".

 

Sell Bannan to another club, they will get the best crosser in the Premier League. That is why we won't sell him.

 

You can't get a more classic case of bias dictating perception than the statement of Bannan is "a woeful crosser of the ball" though you are rivaling it by continuing to quote your incredibly volatile stat that Bannan is the best crosser in the Premier League. Quite ironic really.

Edited April 5, 2013 by VillaLi0n

[Con]

If Opta are such statistical geniuses perhaps they can give me a decent explanation why Rickie Lambert, top of the charts on 36%, is included when he has made only 50 crosses in total this season, while Barry Bannan is excluded even though he's made over twice as many - 114?

 

Genius my ass.

[AstonMartin82]

If Opta are such statistical geniuses perhaps they can give me a decent explanation why Rickie Lambert, top of the charts on 36%, is included when he has made only 50 crosses in total this season, while Barry Bannan is excluded even though he's made over twice as many - 114?

 

Genius my ass.

 

Are you saying that the stats you quote, which are indirectly taken from Opta, are not reliable?

 

Geez... the one thing Bannan had going for him has been taken away.

Edited April 6, 2013 by VillaLi0n

[Con]

I'm suggesting Opta may have chosen a filter for commercial rather than strictly informational reasons. This is a natural thing for a business to do.

 

The filter was designed to put Lambert at the top of the list, even though he hardly ever crosses the ball (50 times), and so his current crossing percentage is probably an unreliable indicator - especially next to Jarvis (who is on about 170+ crosses).

 

Commercially, Rickie Lambert has recently been talked about on MOTD as a possible England player. Lots of people will want to talk about, and read, a piece about crossing with Lambert at the top of the list.

 

Lots of people will mention Opta with Lambert at the top of the crossing list.

 

Conversely, nobody except a few drunk Glaswegians and Villa fans, want to discuss any list with Barry Bannan on the top.

 

 

Fundamental here is: Bannan's sample size is larger than Lambert's, so his crossing percentage statistic is more reliable than Lambert's  - yet for arbitrary reasons of games started he is not included on the Opta list.

Edited April 5, 2013 by Con

[AstonMartin82]

I'm suggesting Opta may have chosen a filter for commercial rather than strictly informational reasons. This is a natural thing for a business to do.

 

The filter was designed to put Lambert at the top of the list, even though he hardly ever crosses the ball (50 times), and so his current crossing percentage is probably an unreliable indicator - especially next to Jarvis (who is on about 170+ crosses).

 

Commercially, Rickie Lambert has recently been talked about on MOTD as a possible England player. Lots of people will want to talk about, and read, a piece about crossing with Lambert at the top of the list.

 

Lots of people will mention Opta with Lambert at the top of the crossing list.

 

Conversely, nobody except a few drunk Glaswegians and Villa fans, want to discuss any list with Barry Bannan on the top.

 

 

Fundamental here is: Bannan's sample size is larger than Lambert's, so his crossing percentage statistic is more reliable than Lambert's  - yet for arbitrary reasons of games started he is not included on the Opta list.

 

Either way, all you are stating is that you can manipulate stats to prove anything you want. It's for this reason I will always judge a player by what I see on the pitch over any stats which are created.

[Con]

Said no such thing.

 

Opta haven't manipulated anything.

[R.I.C.O.]

Barry **** Bannan best crosser of the ball in the league?

 

I've heard it all now. I'll just keep that one in mind the next time he floats a corner to the first opposition player in his way. Again.

[Tomaszk]

I don't know why I get so angry reading this thread. I do, I get pissed off.

 

Need to just accept there are people who don't understand football.

[AstonMartin82]

Said no such thing.

 

Opta haven't manipulated anything.

 

Doesn't matter whether you said it or not. Fact is that if you can make stats show that Lambert is the best crosser in the Premiership then you can find a stat to prove anything you want. As such, a stat that shows Bannan's 40% successful cross rate, even though 100% of his successful crosses are non-threatening doesn't prove that he is a Premier League quality player.

 

Beware of false knowledge. It is more dangerous than ignorance.