lexicon Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 Hopefully someone will be stupid enough to sign him this summer. Can't remember the last time I wanted a player to leave the club so much. So you'd prefer we kept Hutton or Warnock than Bannan? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Con Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 My opinion is that Barry Bannan is a woeful crosser of the ball Bannan is the best crosser in the Premier League. That is a fact. You cannot get a more classic case of bias dictating perception than your statement Bannan is "a woeful crosser of the ball". Sell Bannan to another club, they will get the best crosser in the Premier League. That is why we won't sell him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfisher Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 How is that a fact? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted April 5, 2013 VT Supporter Share Posted April 5, 2013 The thing is, we don't need the best crosser in the PL to play in central midfield. He's not good enough at all the other things needed to be a good midfielder to justify being in the team because he can cross the ball. Maybe if he was a winger you'd keep him in just for that. But he isn't. You seem to be clinging to this stat that he's the best crosser in the premier League as if it proves he's good enough. He's a central midfielder. I could give a shit if his crossing was 0%. That's not why a CM should be in the team. If he wants to play for us he needs to get better at the things that matter for a central midfielder. Having a decent cross is a bonus. It's like a defender having a good finish. It's nice, but I wouldn't really care if he didn't have it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Con Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 (edited) How is that a fact? Surely you don't need me to remind you of the statistics, the source of the statistics? I post them all the time. A great crosser of the ball is someone who gets a cross on target 33% of the time. That means guys like Matt Jarvis of West Ham - near the top of the PL crossing charts - knocks in a wayward cross the vast majority of the time he's on the pitch. The average fan doesn't appreciate how hard it is to do. If he played for Villa and just graduated from Villa's academy, Matt Jarvis would probably be known as a woeful crosser of the ball. Edited April 5, 2013 by Con Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick76 Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 My opinion is that Barry Bannan is a woeful crosser of the ball Bannan is the best crosser in the Premier League. That is a fact. You cannot get a more classic case of bias dictating perception than your statement Bannan is "a woeful crosser of the ball". Sell Bannan to another club, they will get the best crosser in the Premier League. That is why we won't sell him.he is a woeful crosser because as your link says out of 48 successful crosses there is only 1 assist FACT and you can't say a 2% goal rate on that is all our scorers fault are you? If the cross was that good or at least a lot were good then even our scorers would've created a better stat than 2% goal ratio. The fact that his crosses maybe in the right area of the pitch but not in the right area for the striker, not easy for the striker to score, easier for the defender to defend etc etc. What it shows is that while he crosses a lot the cross isn't effective enough for goals to be scored from it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick76 Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 It's a shame it doesn't say how many goals were scored on the other guys chances in that list. I'm sure more than 1 goal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Con Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 (edited) How many assists do you think Matt Jarvis has in 19 starts for West Ham? He's a great crosser of the ball. Hint: less than Bannan. Assists aren't everything. You can be influential without being literally credited for an assist. Some assists are gained by pure chance. Edited April 5, 2013 by Con Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfisher Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 (edited) How is that a fact? Surely you don't need me to remind you of the statistics, the source of the statistics? I post them all the time. A great crosser of the ball is someone who gets a cross on target 33% of the time. That means guys like Matt Jarvis of West Ham - near the top of the PL crossing charts - knocks in a wayward cross the vast majority of the time he's on the pitch. The average fan doesn't appreciate how hard it is to do. If he played for Villa and just graduatedi from Villa's academy, Matt Jarvis would probably be known as a woeful crosser of the ball.Sorry mate, give us a link so I can see them. EDIT - Found them Edited April 5, 2013 by Kingfisher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Con Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 whoscored.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Folski Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 My opinion is that Barry Bannan is a woeful crosser of the ball Bannan is the best crosser in the Premier League. That is a fact. You cannot get a more classic case of bias dictating perception than your statement Bannan is "a woeful crosser of the ball". Sell Bannan to another club, they will get the best crosser in the Premier League. That is why we won't sell him. Bannan's crossing stats are inflated because he plays diagonal balls to the edge of the box that Benteke wins that are of no benefit to the the team at all, yet whoscored.com marks these as successful crosses, which you see, then come on here and say how he is the best crosser in the league. Yet, the best crosser in the league has one measly assist all season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick76 Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 How many assists do you think Matt Jarvis has in 19 starts for West Ham? He's a great crosser of the ball. Hint: less than Bannan. Assists aren't everything. You can be influential without being literally credited for an assist. Some assists are gained by pure chance. so when I use your stats you say those stats aren't everything "assists aren't everything" but when people argue that crosses aren't everything you fall back onto Stats are facts argument. Talk about double standards! Quite a few VT members have argued with you that despite your crossing stats Bannan has no influence in the game apart from negative influence yet you argue the stats say otherwise. I use your stats to prove a point and you argue those stats don't mean anything because its influence on the game not assists. Very bizarre....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Con Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 My opinion is that Barry Bannan is a woeful crosser of the ball Bannan is the best crosser in the Premier League. That is a fact. You cannot get a more classic case of bias dictating perception than your statement Bannan is "a woeful crosser of the ball". Sell Bannan to another club, they will get the best crosser in the Premier League. That is why we won't sell him. Bannan's crossing stats are inflated because he plays diagonal balls to the edge of the box that Benteke wins that are of no benefit to the the team at all, yet whoscored.com marks these as successful crosses, which you see, then come on here and say how he is the best crosser in the league. Yet, the best crosser in the league has one measly assist all season. I've already debunked that one. If it was so easy to cross accurately to Benteke it would inflate the statistics of our other players to similar heights. Only Bannan. Also, Benteke is not the only dominant striker in the air in the Premier League. He wins 58% of his headers. Over 15 games, Andy Carroll has won 65% of his headers. Oliver Giroud has won 55%. Peter Crouch 64%. Bannan doesn't have an unfair advantage because of Benteke. In fact, Benteke is not the best target man in the air in the PL for crosses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted April 5, 2013 VT Supporter Share Posted April 5, 2013 Con, if Bannan WASN'T "the best crosser in the Premier League" would you still have in our starting team, and why? Because, again, you seem to be putting all your eggs into this crossing basket, but I really don't think that's a huge asset for a central midfielder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfisher Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 whoscored.com I've looked at whoscored.com I'm looking for the stat? Where is it? The one that makes him undisputed best crosser in the prem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Con Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 whoscored.com I've looked at whoscored.com I'm looking for the stat? Where is it? The one that makes him undisputed best crosser in the prem. It's under the tab "passing" then C, in player statistics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PieFacE Posted April 5, 2013 VT Supporter Share Posted April 5, 2013 (edited) I really don't understand why the lad gets so much hate. He isn't that bad and we would struggle to find a squad player of his quality for the wages he's on. Should he be first team? Probably not and I doubt he will be. but that doesn't mean we should just sell him. Edited April 5, 2013 by PieFacE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Con Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 Con, if Bannan WASN'T "the best crosser in the Premier League" would you still have in our starting team, and why? Because, again, you seem to be putting all your eggs into this crossing basket, but I really don't think that's a huge asset for a central midfielder. That is why I suggested putting him on the wing in some instances. Whether I'd put him in the CM role depends on the game and what he's tasked to do. Westwood is the better get and giver in the "Carrick" role. Bannan is better at setting tempo and spreading the play, which is what his role is when he is able to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Folski Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 My opinion is that Barry Bannan is a woeful crosser of the ball Bannan is the best crosser in the Premier League. That is a fact. You cannot get a more classic case of bias dictating perception than your statement Bannan is "a woeful crosser of the ball". Sell Bannan to another club, they will get the best crosser in the Premier League. That is why we won't sell him. Bannan's crossing stats are inflated because he plays diagonal balls to the edge of the box that Benteke wins that are of no benefit to the the team at all, yet whoscored.com marks these as successful crosses, which you see, then come on here and say how he is the best crosser in the league. Yet, the best crosser in the league has one measly assist all season. I've already debunked that one. If it was so easy to cross accurately to Benteke it would inflate the statistics of our other players to similar heights. Only Bannan. Also, Benteke is not the only dominant striker in the air in the Premier League. He wins 58% of his headers. Over 15 games, Andy Carroll has won 65% of his headers. Oliver Giroud has won 55%. Peter Crouch 64%. Bannan doesn't have an unfair advantage because of Benteke. In fact, Benteke is not the best target man in the air in the PL for crosses. I disagree, I believe Bannan's crossing stats are inflated because he is putting the ball (and often over hitting balls) into an area where it is not as congested or dangerous, for example the 6 yard box or penalty spot. The vast majority of his crosses are played to the edge of the box closer to the corner of the 18 yard box, nothing ever comes of them, bar the ball being turned over or coming back to a full back. Can you get one of you infamous heat maps to show where Bannan's cross have been landing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfisher Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 (edited) whoscored.com I've looked at whoscored.com I'm looking for the stat? Where is it? The one that makes him undisputed best crosser in the prem. It's under the tab "passing" then C, in player statistics. Yeah I'm looking at them, I can't see anything that provides anything concrete with regard to your claim. It would be better if we had a cross to goal ratio because I would dispute what a successful cross is? Is it a diagonal ball to Benteke, who has a high chance of connecting with it, but zero chance of scoring? Is it a cross that's directly resulted in a header/shot at goal? Off the top of my head I can remember one Bannan cross being converted (v Newcastle IIRC), out of 114 in total. Edit - it's all been covered above^ In summary I'd want a cross to goal ratio. I'd don't like stats that are too subjective. Edited April 5, 2013 by Kingfisher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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