Barry Bannan

[DamsonwoodVillan]

For Villa - as we are now - Bannan has done well this season in my opinion. My earlier post was to say I don't dismiss him as a bad player, far from it, but I don't think he will reach a level in his game to sustain his being in the team if we do go on to being a higher premier league club again next season.

I think to be as small as Bannan is you have either have to have fantastic ball skills or you need to be lighting quick. Bannan possesses neither. I agree he is a deep lying creative player who can hit the occasional Champagne 50 yard crossfield pass, and he has a decent dead-ball game, but I think he gets found out whenever we play a top half side.

[theboyangel]

I think Bannan has done well this season, although in a midfield two he's still lightweight and easily by-passed.

If we get the right DM in, I can see him improving alongside Westwood. He can certainly pass the ball but sometimes lacks the experience of knowing when to play the 'hollywood' ball or just keep it simple to retain possession and build our play.

He has a place in the squad for sure IMO.

[Kingfisher]

He's our Scholes, except without the vision, technique, shooting ability, awareness, passing and control.

[Zatman]

He's our Scholes, except without the vision, technique, shooting ability, awareness, passing and control.

better tackler though

[skarroki]

if he could do something along these lines on a more regular basis that would be great. Great technique and control.

I really rate the guy but i think he should be used in a rotating midfield, with Westwood, 2 other CM's and an Attacking midfielder. However until we have those options i think it's ridiculous to want him out the team. who do you want to play instead of him? he really isn't that bad, and i feel he is improving slightly as the season goes on. Let him play regularly until we have someone better. Selling him would be madness, the squad is wafer thin and our other options in the middle are poor

[benireduk]

I get that you don't rate him and ostensibly don't like supporting our academy players but stop stating opinion as fact, it's pathetic.

Wow! Where did you get the impression I don't support any of our academy players?

This is the Bannan thread, but for the record, there's nothing more satisfying than seeing an Academy player make the grade. In my opinion I just don't think Bannan is good enough and I'm not the only one who has that view.

[Con]

for the record, there's nothing more satisfying than seeing an Academy player make the grade. In my opinion I just don't think Bannan is good enough and I'm not the only one who has that view.

What will Bannan have to do to make "the grade" in your opinion.

I could argue he has already made the grade. Only 50% time in our midfield, yet on the pitch for 18/19 PL points. Must be doing something right, I could argue.

So define "the grade". Is it measured in goals and assists - if so, how many should he make? What if I say key passes more realistic measure of influence than assists (because assists require the person on the end of the key pass scoring): could you define how many key passes Bannan should make?

At this point I will be cheeky and say I've checked the key passes stat for Xavi this season: 14 games, 24 key passes - 3 less than Bannan! He does have 4 goals and 4 assists though and I'm definitely not saying he's as good as Xavi - just being cheeky.

Also, please could you clarify for me whether you think Joe Allen has made "the grade" and why, because you could compare Bannan to Allen.

I'm not saying Bannan is definitely on the level of Joe Allen... I'll wait to the end of the season before I answer that. Right now I think he deserves more game time.

[ryanvilla_1994]

The reason our points tally is so low in the first place is because we have so many poor/average players like Bannan.

[benireduk]

To make the grade, he needs to establish himself long term like Gareth Barry did. Obviously we'll only know the answer in the next 3-4 years on that one.

I take on board what you are saying about key passes, thats a fair point. I think it's also fair for you to expect midfielders to contribute with goals and assists.

From what I've seen of Bannan i think he tries to many "Hollywood" balls when a simpler option is available. The Reading game also springs to mind when he twice tried to dribble the ball forward and lost it on the edge of the box which could have led to us conceding. For me, if we sign a quality midfielder in January, Bannan will be on the bench. Westwood in his short time here looks more composed and makes better use of the ball. For me, he's the one who looks most likely to establish himself.

And Joe Allen. I don't think he's made it yet. One season in the Premier League, and signed by Liverpool by his old manager.

[markavfc40]

To make the grade, he needs to establish himself long term like Gareth Barry did. Obviously we'll only know the answer in the next 3-4 years on that one.

He has already gone way past ever being able to establish himself like Gareth Barry did. Gareth Barry at 17 was 10 times the player Bannan is now.

Bannan is 23 years old. He may possibly improve slightly but he will never be fit to lace the boots of some of the players being mentioned in this thread. He has reached the peak of his capabilities - playing for a struggling Premier League club who are lacking good midfield players. In fact I think he will eventually find his level is in the Championship.

Edited January 6, 2013 by markavfc40

[TrentVilla]

He has already gone way past every being able to establish himself like Garth Barry did. Gareth Barry at 17 was 10 times the player Bannan is now.

Bannan is 23 years old. He may possibly improve slightly but he will never be fit to lace the boots of some of the players being mentioned in this thread. He has reached the peak of his capabilities - playing for a struggling Premier League club who are lacking good midfield players. In fact I think he will eventually find his level is in the Championship.

Totally agree on all points.

[Con]

To make the grade, he needs to establish himself long term like Gareth Barry did. Obviously we'll only know the answer in the next 3-4 years on that one.

I take on board what you are saying about key passes, thats a fair point. I think it's also fair for you to expect midfielders to contribute with goals and assists.

So to make "the grade" Bannan

1. needs to prove it for 3-4 years (what is "it"?)

2. contribute assists and goals (how many per season?)

From what I've seen of Bannan i think he tries to many "Hollywood" balls when a simpler option is available. The Reading game also springs to mind when he twice tried to dribble the ball forward and lost it on the edge of the box which could have led to us conceding.

He's made mistakes. Even great players make mistakes. Paul Scholes over-hit some hollywood balls against West Ham yesterday. I think you need to put Bannan's mistakes in context.

In the PL he gets caught in possession less often than any other Villa midfielder and has the most key passes.

Yes he can improve, get dispossessed less often, and make more accurate passes, but making some mistakes in a game is natural for even great players. Overall effectiveness is what matters.

For me, if we sign a quality midfielder in January, Bannan will be on the bench. Westwood in his short time here looks more composed and makes better use of the ball. For me, he's the one who looks most likely to establish himself.

Westwood plays a different role. He has far far fewer key passes than Bannan, tackles slightly less often and is dispossessed slightly more often.

Westwood has better passing accuracy but with the lower key pass rate, it's hard to know what to make of this. Is he creative? Can he spot a pass like Bannan? That's not been his game style so far.

Bannan would not be automatically benched by a new midfielder. It depends on the tactics Lambert plays and the style of the footballer bought in.

If we play only 2 in CM Bannan is more likely to be paired with a strong DM than Westwood because Bannan is probably creative. We could also play 3 in CM.

And Joe Allen. I don't think he's made it yet. One season in the Premier League, and signed by Liverpool by his old manager.

You are being a very harsh judge. Joe Allen has proven himself, in my opinion, with that season for Swansea. Few goals and assists, and the key man in Swansea's control of possession and attacks.

When will you be happy a player has made it? When have a team full of Champions League stars - like Young, Milner and Barry?

I'm happy for the team to get better and better and to support each player on the way who raises our standard to that higher level even if they're not Champions League.

[lexicon]

Agree with everything you've written, Con.

[Jarpie]

What I think Bannan would need is defensive midfielder to play with him to give him cover to concentrate on what he's good at, same with Delph.

[skarroki]

Con, i understand why you back him now because you've stated all the statistics you have to back up your opinion. But what was your opinion of him and what did you think were his best attributes before finding all of that out? What did you think of him after watching him play and nothing more?

[lexicon]

Con, i understand why you back him now because you've stated all the statistics you have to back up your opinion. But what was your opinion of him and what did you think were his best attributes before finding all of that out? What did you think of him after watching him play and nothing more?

He used stats to back up his opinion, not form it.

[Con]

Con, i understand why you back him now because you've stated all the statistics you have to back up your opinion. But what was your opinion of him and what did you think were his best attributes before finding all of that out? What did you think of him after watching him play and nothing more?

Now I know whoscored.com exists (I don't work for them, not affiliated in any way, not promoting them, just found them with an internet search) I form my opinion with help of statistics.

Before then I formed my opinion on Bannan same as all other players:

* youtube (if any) - virtually none in case of Bannan

* newspaper reports - don't remember negative ones about Bannan, mostly positive mentions of Villa's academy, and Bannan is one of the academy products.

* what I've see when he plays - good set piece delivery, can pick a pass

* age and height - short players are generally more technical players than taller players

* number of goals and assists

* what other people have said on forums about his style of play

My opinion was affected by my level of expectation. I didn't expect Bannan to score loads of goals and he doesn't. That's not a negative. He's not a goalscoring midfielder who arrives late in penalty box like Gerrard or Lampard.

I did expect control of possession, set piece delivery and creativity. He has done this to some extent. He is a younger player still learning the game and last year he was managed by McLeish, which would not have suited his playing style.

In terms of my expectation Bannan is about what I'd expect. No more, no less either.

Now I have some good stats I can form an opinion based on what is actually happening according to some objective measures, rather than from general opinion.

Arguments are generally stronger when supported by statistics but even when I'm using statistics to form an argument it is only, ultimately, an opinion - not fact.

Just because a player has good statistics for a while, doesn't mean they will continue to post good statistics.

They can have one good season and then for reasons we can't explain not perform at the same level again.

[Villa87]

He has already gone way past ever being able to establish himself like Gareth Barry did. Gareth Barry at 17 was 10 times the player Bannan is now.

Bannan is 23 years old. He may possibly improve slightly but he will never be fit to lace the boots of some of the players being mentioned in this thread. He has reached the peak of his capabilities - playing for a struggling Premier League club who are lacking good midfield players. In fact I think he will eventually find his level is in the Championship.

I completely agree with this. He is part of one of the worst midfields in the league. Once a new CM is signed (hopefully a tough tackling sort) I would much rather drop Bannon and play Westwood who I rate so much higher than Bannon.

[Con]

I would much rather drop Bannon and play Westwood who I rate so much higher than Bannon.

Why do you rate Westwood higher? This is not yet supported by the statistics, Bannan is generally better on all of them. Westwood has one extra assist because he passed side-ways 5 meters when Holman shot in from range.

Westwood and Bannan are different kinds of players so if you want one rather than the other to me you are effectively saying you would prefer the team to play in a particular style. What is that style?

Let's take one of the best midfields as an example.

Who is best out of Frank Lampard, Juan Mata and Ramires? They each play central midfield but with their own very different qualities.

Who is best, and the best combo, depends on the tactics you want to play in the match. They excel at different things. Lampard box-to-box generalist, Ramires defensive tackler, Mata creative.

Lampard / Ramires will be the most defensive line up.

Lampard/Mata will be very attacking.

Ramires/Mata will be mix of attack and defence.

Westwood describes himself as a Michael Carrick kind of player. Carrick is a CM who knits together play with his passes and contributes to the defensive side of the game and to the attack with crosses. He's different to Lampard/Gerrard because he doesn't attack the penalty area and score goals.

Bannan is not a defensive player at all and in the right team shouldn't be required to do that job. If Westwood is really going to be a Carrick-type player he should be better at this job.

[Skruff]

To be fair Con. They have the same amount of tackles. Westwood does an average of 2.3 interceptions per game while bannan has 1.3. Westwood also have a higher amount of average clearances and blocked shots.

Westwood also have superior successful pass percentage to Banna's and twice the amount of assists.

(These stats are the average per game and not per minute played though) I'm not expecting either of them to get many assists, and the difference in the two players offensive and defensive stats just underlines the difference in the role they play in our team.

But aren't you ignoring some of the defensive statics when you state that "Bannan is generally betther in all of them"?