Bollitics: VT General Election Poll #2

[snowychap]

Ok, what is the core to New Labour philosophy then if it isn't welfare to workfare.

Wot Bicks wrote mostly.

Expand on this Purnell and Freud business please.

Are you referring to David Freud? How can you possibly say New Labour turned to him, when New Labour started the welfare-to-workfare shift in the very early 1990s? That was way before Freud became as interested in the welfare system..?

I'm sorry but I really didn't notice any perceptible change towards the welfare system (except for a few bits intended just to help people) in the early years of New Lab (perhaps it was one of their 'aspiration' thingies).

Since Freud was turned to (even though his three week, back of a fag packet report was initially ditched), New Lab have, effectively, adopted a relatively Tory position (it will be the Tory position should they be elected come May).

Why did they change to this belief? I would say that after years of Tory rule and the shift the country took, it was impossible to revert back to the old left ways of resource redistribution. They founded the third way, based on pragmatism, which is obviously a Conservative concept, ie they accepted the changes Thatcher brought to Britain...and embraced populism.

I would also argue that there had been a culture of dependency in Britain, where people expected this and that. This could not continue if Britain was to be successful economically around the world in a market that was moving towards globalization.

I did say, "I mean really - not just what they would tell us."

You've just repeated what the Labour party would say (and, ironically, what the Tories would say, too).

You need a high employment rate to be as productive as you possible can be.

I don't think that's necessarily true but that's a bit of a red herring, really.

'Workfare' is nothing to do with maximising productivity.

[tonyh29]

Quote:

Brown got off to a bad start today when he insulted all the Alzheimer's suffers in the UK when he stated

“I’ve never forgotten where I come from"

I'm pretty sure he didn't mean it.

:shock:

ok I'll give up on the joke telling from now on :-(

[Awol]

ok I'll give up on the joke telling from now on

Will you promise to extend that to facebook too?

[bickster]

I thought it was one of your better Dratisms ;-)

[wiganvillain]

ok I'll give up on the joke telling from now on :-(

How can you, you think Dave is brilliant :winkold:

[tonyh29]

Seems from Radio 5 live and Browns opening statements that we can forget the economy ultimately it's gonna to come down to a class war ..

All this "ordinary middle class bollocks" ..how many middle class ordinary people do you know who dated a Romanian princess for 5 years

Cameron may not be “ordinary”, but he isn’t “upper class” either ..so are labour planning to fight the election on a “ordinary middle class” party leader verses an "upper-middle class" one ?

[Jon]

..so are labour planning to fight the election on a “ordinary middle class” party leader verses an "upper-middle class" one ?

only if it's a sing off.

[tonyh29]

meh , everyone on VT is a bloody comedian (apart from Drat obviously :winkold:)

[bickster]

Seems from Radio 5 live and Browns opening statements that we can forget the economy ultimately it's gonna to come down to a class war ..

All this "ordinary middle class bollocks" ..how many middle class ordinary people do you know who dated a Romanian princess for 5 years

Cameron may not be “ordinary”, but he isn’t “upper class” either ..so are labour planning to fight the election on a “ordinary middle class” party leader verses an "upper-middle class" one ?

A) The middle class has always been the battleground

Not wanting to resort to class really but you do have to be corrected, he went to Eton and is the grandson of a baronet. by most definitons of "Upper Class", he is the epitomy of it. Brown is middle class, son of a preacher (man ;-) ). Dating some eastern european royal bint in the dim and distant past isn't a class indicator, going to Eton and being the grandson of a baronet most definitely is.

[bickster]

Oh apparently he's also the fifth cousin twice removed of the Matriach of that bunch of German Tax dodgers too (William IV is his Great Great Great Great Great Grandfather). David Cameron is minor royalty, he is upper class

[tonyh29]

but you do have to be corrected

But he doesn’t have a title or live in a stately home for that matter ...so according to any conventional definition he is not Upper Class

Going to Eton doesn't make you Upper Class either , you could send your children there if you so wished , as could anyone ( witha shit load of money :winkold:)

[Awol]

and yet it appears that most major industry leaders say it IS a good idea to cut NI right now

I have been waiting for that one Tony

OK so lets look at some of these so called leaders - well considering that there were some serious backers of the Tory party in that lot the door has been opened and credibility is now leaving. Add to that the funding for the Tory (non) alternative will certainly be a increase in VAT which will affect all aspects of the UK but surprisingly not these so called non-political industrialists.

It was a marketing ploy by the Tory party that really should have been left on the shelf.

Interesting that Brown is now saying that business leaders have been "decieved" by the Tory intention to leave 6 billion of proposed NIC rises IN the economy. Also interesting that he describes it as being taken OUT of the economy, obviously confusing the economy and the State as being the same thing when they are not.

Keeping the money out of the Treasury keeps it circulating around the real economy. Putting it in the Treasury ensures it gets pissed away on something ludicrous like Diversity Councillors or similar and unecessary bollox.

As for where does the money come from, I'd guess from the 11 billion of government waste identified in the Budget but which Labour don't plan to begin addressing until 2011. Basically they want to increase National Insurance to ensure they have enough cash to continue the planned wasteful spending for 2010.

Genius, vote Labour.

[kidlewis]

6 billion is chicken feed when it comes to government spending. Adonis said it was nearly half of his transport budget. According to 2009 figures of £23bn for transport, how is 6 half of 23? is he retarded? or has the transport budget been slashed since 2008?

I agree with Awol that keeping money in the economy rather than in treasury coffers is the way forward. Unless it's new start up businesses and sectors (e.g. like the growing green energy sector) where government investment, even if it is small can kick start something positive. and remember that government investment, that creates jobs more often than not gives them a rebate in the form of PAYE and NI of about 20%.

Adonis now trying to get out of the fact that they have recycled yet another red herring referendum in their manifesto, which they said they would do in 1997. Referendum + Labour = nothing.

[drat01]

Some very funny comments here

Taking money out of the treasury and keeping it in the economy? Laughable - The "economy" I am assuming you mean certain areas of business who have no worries about moving that money abroad to finance cheap labour schemes?

The banking community - note: nearly half of the parliamentary candidates put forward by the Tory party in marginal seats have background in the banking / square mile so it was reported today?

I wonder why some of the "experts" on here are not in big business because ideas they put forward as fact are way off what reality says will happen

Maybe some of the millions - funded by tax dodging Ashcroft - that the Tory party are spending on private planes and mass posters costing millions and then preaching about tightening of belts? - could be used for better causes?

Or maybe the Tory plan for VAT will happen - Boris's deputy had an interesting idea which sort of lets the cat out a bit re VAT. That is the TAX that the Tory party has often put up in the past and will do so again - the poorest get impacted most but hey the banking lot are happy and so are the business community I suppose

[Wol.]

Fantastic to hear Gordon Brown has finally handed in his months notice

[kidlewis]

Some very funny comments here

Taking money out of the treasury and keeping it in the economy? Laughable - The "economy" I am assuming you mean certain areas of business who have no worries about moving that money abroad to finance cheap labour schemes?

You assume wrong on my part.

I mean more money in my pocket, to spend on what I wish, bills, food, drink, clothes and petrol. All of which has tax on it.

There are plenty of other ways of raising £6bn than just a blanket NI rise. Which will also be passed onto the consumer in increased prices anyway.

[stewiek2]

The General Election.

Our chance to choose between a Giant Douche and a Turd Sandwich.

Ooo I'm nicking that! Spot on. Brilliant!

I wasn't gonna bother voting but now you've said that, I think Diddy will come after me and force me to vote.

[Awol]

Some very funny comments here

Taking money out of the treasury and keeping it in the economy? Laughable - The "economy" I am assuming you mean certain areas of business who have no worries about moving that money abroad to finance cheap labour schemes?

No, I mean in the wage packets and pockets of ordinary people and also in the accounts of businesses. If people have more they spend more stimulating demand. If businesses have more it creates more jobs. If the Treasury have more they will find creative ways to slash it up the wall.

The banking community - note: nearly half of the parliamentary candidates put forward by the Tory party in marginal seats have background in the banking / square mile so it was reported today?

I didn't know that, is it any worse than Labour parachuting large numbers of candidates into safe seats from the Unite union? I'm not sure it is because neither is particularly representative of the man in the street.

I wonder why some of the "experts" on here are not in big business because ideas they put forward as fact are way off what reality says will happen

We're having a debate which I think is still allowed, however if politicians were so great at managing the economy one wonders why they too are not also in big business? Probably because most couldn't manage a corner shop.

[tonyh29]

isn't it funny how despite all the evidence and bribes in the way of knighthoods ,MBE's etc that the bankers were courted and in league with Labour they are suddenly all despicable Tory cronies .. oh dear oh dear

next on VT News .. Murdoch who was Ok between the years 1997 - 2009 is now evil

[CarewsEyebrowDesigner]

Anyway, I think some bloke on telly summed the conservative problem up perfectly. ''Scratch the surface''

Conservatives are playing a dangerous game with basically relying on Cameron to win them the election, look beyond him and what do you have? Well...for one you have a minister whoring himself on american television bashing the NHS. Now he may be a minority but the question that stems is "Does Cameron have real control over his party?" and the simple answer is we don't know. Cameron may be a face of the new torys but look beyond him and the gimp and it all looks too familiar.

I've a feeling he'll piss it away, because try his best he just doesn't have the guile to carry a party on his on. And for all labours faults they can rely on Mandelson to tear away at Camerons facade in the coming month. I'm not his biggest fan but he's a very good politician and probably the tories biggest threat IMO.

Anyway, let's hope for a hung parliament with big Vince becoming chancellor, at least for few years until the worst of the damage has been recovered well enough, then let the blue and red parties battle it out for the future when they don't have the chance to kick us when we are down.