If there was a general election tomorrow...

[drat01]

Drat,

Ok, what about Brit's living in the EU? Still abroad, vote or no vote

Edit: I asked about the Armed Forces because I was trying to clarify what you meant. I think that's still allowed.

Superb. So as a staunch anti EU person - a UKIP follower I believe - you are happy that people who do not live in the UK retain a vote? These people are not domiciled in the UK, have little or no intention of returning but still retain a vote? I cannot see why you reference the EU specifically, obviously there will be a counter punch back with some point?

On one of my many trips to SA recently, I met up with a few ex-pats living down there. A lot still have the vote - they also have a vote for the SA elections. How can you reconcile that?

Surely as we have the archaic system of first past the post in the UK, then a major part for that is that you vote for your local MP. How can someone who does not live in that constituency have that right?

If we had a presidential system and a PR one then that would be different, but as we don't it makes no sense whatsoever.

[tonyh29]

I just wish it was possible to have a debate on policies, events, personalities in politics etc without the division of the traditional party lines and without people taking their normal positions, wishful thinking I know.

The closest we got was the London Mayor election as Sky had a "game" with multi choice of policies but without actually saying whose policy they were ... Interestingly my results came down heavily in favour of Boris , but i agreed with 3 that turned out to be Ken's and zero of the Lib Dem bloke whose name i don't even recall now ...

But i agree , whatever party A says ,Party b followers will object to and so on .. and then conveniently forget they objected to it when party B steal it as their own policy :winkold:

[TrentVilla]

But i agree , whatever party A says ,Party b followers will object to and so on .. and then conveniently forget they objected to it when party B steal it as their own policy :winkold:

That is the thing that pisses me off the most and all parties do it, there is nothing worse than seeing a MP opposing something with no real reason and you just know they are thinking "bugger, why isn't this our idea" or "I don't believe a word I'm saying"

It would never happen but I wish when they think something is a good idea they could just say its a good idea and then debate the things they disagree about rather than making everything divided by party lines.

The most comical example has to be the chap last year who commented on the appointment of the ex general before realising who had made the appointment then changed his opinion completely.

[under_the_bridge]

Although I have usually voted conservative, I personally feel that in my local area (Stafford) the conservatives have a track record of not being very good at all.

So spoilt ballot for me.

[drat01]

But i agree , whatever party A says ,Party b followers will object to and so on .. and then conveniently forget they objected to it when party B steal it as their own policy Wink

:-) :-) - I have a simpler rule - see what Tony says and then argue against it as its usually wrong ..... cuts out the middle man

[Rodders]

But i agree , whatever party A says ,Party b followers will object to and so on .. and then conveniently forget they objected to it when party B steal it as their own policy :winkold:

That is the thing that pisses me off the most and all parties do it, there is nothing worse than seeing a MP opposing something with no real reason and you just know they are thinking "bugger, why isn't this our idea" or "I don't believe a word I'm saying"

It would never happen but I wish when they think something is a good idea they could just say its a good idea and then debate the things they disagree about rather than making everything divided by party lines.

The most comical example has to be the chap last year who commented on the appointment of the ex general before realising who had made the appointment then changed his opinion completely.

blame the whips.

it's bloody annoying.

I shall still be voting in my local MP as she's done alright enough, but as a Lib Dem she's not suffocated as much I think from too much peer pressure which is handy

[tonyh29]

I have a simpler rule - see what Tony says and then agree with him as it as its usually right ..... simples

Fixed :winkold:

[HongKongVillan]

Liberal Democrats - If they do not make themseleves heard this time round they never will, or more competetion the better

[Awol]

Drat,

Ok, what about Brit's living in the EU? Still abroad, vote or no vote

Edit: I asked about the Armed Forces because I was trying to clarify what you meant. I think that's still allowed.

Superb. So as a staunch anti EU person - a UKIP follower I believe - you are happy that people who do not live in the UK retain a vote?

If they retain British citizenship then of course, that is their right. If they take the citizenship of another country then no, they should not.

You didn't answer the question though.

I cannot see why you reference the EU specifically

I'm interested becuase you are in favour of the whole freedom of movement and right to live and work throughout the EU, so if you feel that Britons living their should have the right to vote it somewhat undermines your 'obscene' claim. If you think they should be allowed then why discriminate against Britons who live abroad in one country but not another?

I'm just trying to find out if your position is consistent Ian, that's all.

...If we had a presidential system and a PR one then that would be different, but as we don't it makes no sense whatsoever.

I think I've answered that above.

[leviramsey]

If they retain British citizenship then of course, that is their right. If they take the citizenship of another country then no, they should not.

What if they retain British citizenship and take another citizenship?

In the UK's case, given that the only thing that you vote for is the local MP and that the UK doesn't tax overseas income (IIRC), the case for extending expats the vote is questionable. In the USA's case, neither of those applies, thus there's no real problem with extending American expats the vote.

I'm interested becuase you are in favour of the whole freedom of movement and right to live and work throughout the EU, so if you feel that Britons living their should have the right to vote it somewhat undermines your 'obscene' claim. If you think they should be allowed then why discriminate against Britons who live abroad in one country but not another?

If you're taking the view that the EU should supercede UK sovereignty, than why not take a position similar to the USA in that if you leave, say, Massachusetts for New York, you lose the right to vote in Massachusetts.

And to tie into the tax questions, if you leave Massachusetts to live in another state, you no longer owe Massachusetts income tax (and your tax will be prorated for the year you move). If you leave Massachusetts to live outside the USA, then you will be paying Massachusetts income tax for essentially the rest of your life.

EDIT: LEVI IN AGREEING WITH DRAT01 SHOCKER!

[Awol]

If they retain British citizenship then of course, that is their right. If they take the citizenship of another country then no, they should not.

What if they retain British citizenship and take another citizenship?

Again I'd say no, but if a citizens' sole citizenship is British I believe they should be allowed to vote in UK elections as a matter of principle. Removing the vote from people based on this or that criteria is a dangerous direction of travel for a democratic country, imo.

In the UK's case, given that the only thing that you vote for is the local MP and that the UK doesn't tax overseas income (IIRC), the case for extending expats the vote is questionable.

If we are basing this purely on the tax contributed then I think that is dodgy ground. For example, if a British citizen has paid tax for say twenty years in the UK and then chooses to work abroad for an indeterminate length of time why should they have less right to vote than someone who remains in the UK for their whole life surviving on the benefits system? Surely that individual has been a net consumer of tax payers resources, so if this is a financial argument why would they have the right to vote over someone who has been a net contributor currently residing elsewhere?

It seems profoundly undemocratic to me to say the right of a citizen to vote is conditional on current place of residence - unless that residence happens to be at Her Majesties pleasure. As we are set up you do by definition have to cast your vote for a local MP, but I'm off soon and will remian on the electoral roll, as will my missus. It's about registering a choice imo, and having the right to do so.

I'm interested becuase you are in favour of the whole freedom of movement and right to live and work throughout the EU, so if you feel that Britons living their should have the right to vote it somewhat undermines your 'obscene' claim. If you think they should be allowed then why discriminate against Britons who live abroad in one country but not another?

If you're taking the view that the EU should supercede UK sovereignty, than why not take a position similar to the USA in that if you leave, say, Massachusetts for New York, you lose the right to vote in Massachusetts.

I don't take that view but that is what I'm trying to get Drat to answer. There seems to me to be something of a contradiction in saying ex-pat voting is 'obscene', unless you also extend that view to Brit's living in the broader EU. If one does hold that position then it is surely at odds with the nation of Europe theory that Europhiles subscribe to, essentially creating a two-tier 'abroad'?

I may not have explained my meaning very well but can you see the point?

[leviramsey]

If you're taking the view that the EU should supercede UK sovereignty, than why not take a position similar to the USA in that if you leave, say, Massachusetts for New York, you lose the right to vote in Massachusetts.

I don't take that view but that is what I'm trying to get Drat to answer. There seems to me to be something of a contradiction in saying ex-pat voting is 'obscene', unless you also extend that view to Brit's living in the broader EU. If one does hold that position then it is surely at odds with the nation of Europe theory that Europhiles subscribe to, essentially creating a two-tier 'abroad'?

It's definitely at odds if you think that Europe is abroad, although even then a reasonable case could be made that a Briton living in France shouldn't be able to vote in British elections, while a British expat in New Zealand should still be able to. If you take the view that the various nations of the EU are/should be subsidiary to the EU, then there's as much of a case for extending the vote to a Briton in France as there is for allowing, say, mjmooney to vote in Birmingham council elections.

Voting in national elections is different, as the issues that national elections have a bearing on have a bearing on the expatriates, while local/regional elections by and large have no such bearing. If the UK is a subsidiary of the EU, then voting for Westminster is voting in a regional election.

[Awol]

If you're taking the view that the EU should supercede UK sovereignty, than why not take a position similar to the USA in that if you leave, say, Massachusetts for New York, you lose the right to vote in Massachusetts.

I don't take that view but that is what I'm trying to get Drat to answer. There seems to me to be something of a contradiction in saying ex-pat voting is 'obscene', unless you also extend that view to Brit's living in the broader EU. If one does hold that position then it is surely at odds with the nation of Europe theory that Europhiles subscribe to, essentially creating a two-tier 'abroad'?

It's definitely at odds if you think that Europe is abroad, although even then a reasonable case could be made that a Briton living in France shouldn't be able to vote in British elections, while a British expat in New Zealand should still be able to. If you take the view that the various nations of the EU are/should be subsidiary to the EU, then there's as much of a case for extending the vote to a Briton in France as there is for allowing, say, mjmooney to vote in Birmingham council elections.

Voting in national elections is different, as the issues that national elections have a bearing on have a bearing on the expatriates, while local/regional elections by and large have no such bearing. If the UK is a subsidiary of the EU, then voting for Westminster is voting in a regional election.

Ok, so assuming I am following your logic correctly (and to be fair you often lose me with that big old Mekon brain ), if we accept that the General Election to the Westminster Parliament is a national rather than a regional one, then it is perfectly reasonable for ex-pats to vote in it.

But, if you take the view that the UK has ceeded sovereignty to the EU (whose leaders are unelected by the people of Europe) then the Westminster elections take on the mantle of regional elections and therefore ex-pats shouldn't vote in them.

I know which seems 'right' but post Lisbon I'm not sure from a technical perspective. If the ceeded sovereignty argument holds weight that proves that the UK has indeed been sold down the river without so much as a 'by your leave' (re-confirming my own decision to vote for those dastardly extremists in the UKIP).

So to Drat, should Britons living elsewhere in the EU get to vote in the Westminster elections, or does that fall under the 'obscene' category too?

[Gringo]

Democracy is one person one vote. Not one person, one vote per country. So if you vote in new zealand, dubai, spain, iom, gibralter, jersey, ireland or antigua you forgo any democratic right to vote in the uk.

I think that's a simple test.

[Awol]

Democracy is one person one vote. Not one person, one vote per country. So if you vote in new zealand, dubai, spain, iom, gibralter, jersey, ireland or antigua you forgo any democratic right to vote in the uk.

I think that's a simple test.

Good point, that also clears up Drat's fair comment about people voting in both South Africa and UK, clearly they shouldn't.

As I'm moving to a benign dictatorship for a while that won't be a problem I face - indeed, I might not even notice the difference and lack of internet porn seems a small price to pay for halfway competent government.

Out of interest do you vote in Gib or UK, mate?

[TrentVilla]

Democracy is one person one vote. Not one person, one vote per country. So if you vote in new zealand, dubai, spain, iom, gibralter, jersey, ireland or antigua you forgo any democratic right to vote in the uk.

I think that's a simple test.

That hits the nail on the head for me.

By the way, nice new avatar :winkold:

[coda]

I want to vote but don't have a clue who to vote for. I'm not voting for the Tories, that would be akin to me supporting small heath. Maybe the televised debates will help me decide or maybe they'll be full of the usual waffle.

[Gringo]

By the way, nice new avatar :winkold:

Out of interest do you vote in Gib or UK, mate?

When we moved to spain, we 'moved' to spain. Even though a portion of my taxes ends up in the uk purse I don't think democracy is to look after 'commercial interests' it's to take care of the people who live there. So my choice would be to vote in spain, that's where I live.

[tonyh29]

I wonder how the following people would vote :-)

Harriet Harman,

David Miliband,

Douglas Alexander,

Bob Ainsworth,

Jack Straw

Jim Murphy.

mind you seeing as one second they were joining the coup and then next second they then changed their mind maybe they would be better suited in the Lib dems :-)

[Gringo]

Out of interest do you vote in Gib or UK, mate?

Even though I'm an oirish citizen I have no right to vote:

Overseas voters

If you are an Irish citizen living abroad you cannot be entered on the register of electors. This means that you cannot vote in an election or referendum here in Ireland. (The only exception to this is in the case of Irish officials on duty abroad (and their spouses) who may register on the postal voters list).