economic situation is dire

[TrentVilla]

Yes 12 weeks with an end hirer, it doesn't matter if you work a full week or 1 hour that counts as 1 week under AWR.

I'd rather not comment on individual companies because I don't know their structures but if they are one and the same entity and you are employed in the same role then it counts as the same clock. So for example you work in A Supermarket on the tills and then you go back to Uni and continue working for the same firm but in a different store in the same role, that is the same clock. If the role is 'substancially' different then it can be mean more than one clock with a client for the same candidate.

As for the extra costs it really depends upon the sector, the agency and the individual hirer and if you have any pre-existing contracts in place for instance.

The irony of this is that the public sector is going to be hit hard, the cost of education and health staff in temporary roles will go up as a direct result of legislation at a time budgets are being reduced. It is a nightmare in many many different ways and oddly nobody seems to be talking about it.

[PauloBarnesi]

Do people think HS2 will benefit the nation economically and any other improvements in infrastructure?

[tonyh29]

Isn't it old technology now ?

My understanding is that friction of wheels on track is the major limitation ... So why not look to make HS2 with new technology ( Maglev ) and with the advantage that it will be quieter as well ?

[bickster]

Isn't it old technology now ?

My understanding is that friction of wheels on track is the major limitation ... So why not look to make HS2 with new technology ( Maglev ) and with the advantage that it will be quieter as well ?

Current World Records of Rail and Maglev are a whole 4mph apart and the rail one does have the advantage of being on an actual proper fully used railway line as opposed to a test track in Japan.

Maglev for High Speed Inter City transport is a way off yet. There are just 3 commercially operating Maglev systems which combined add up to 40km in length. One of those three isn't even High Speed, your car can drive down a motorway legally faster, they are building another slow Maglev in Beijing and that will bring the commercial track total in the world to..... 50km.

[Risso]

The worst thing about it for me though is that it won't even have the desire affect, those people who this legislation was introduced to help will either end up out of work or on a Swedish derogation contract earning exactly what they were previously.

Utter stupidity.

So, for whose benefit was this introduced?

What was the desired effect?

Who is baulking at the consequences of its implementation?

The incidence of the costs of this legislation falls upon whom?

Low paid temporary workers

Giving them the same rights as permanent staff

Companies who use contract staff, employment agencies, umbrella companies, contractors themselves

Companies who use contract staff, employment agencies, umbrella companies, contractors themselves

[Risso]

So, for whose benefit was this introduced?

What was the desired effect?

Who is baulking at the consequences of its implementation?

The incidence of the costs of this legislation falls upon whom?

1. For the benefit of temporary workers particularly the lower paid temporary workers. There is a incorrect belief that all temporary workers are ill treated and under paid when in reality many temp workers enjoy better conditions and pay than their permanent counterparts.

2. The desired effect was to give all temporary workers the same rights (not employment rights) as their permanent counterparts. Most of these rights are in effect from Day 1 such as right to facilities eg a canteen, gym or child care. The right for equal pay kicks in at 12 weeks but the 12 weeks doesn't need to be solid service.

Imagine it like a clock, only after a 6 week break does the clock re-set. So you could work 6 weeks then have 6 weeks off and then go back and work 6 weeks and that would see you qualify. This is a simple example but the reality in most temporary sectors is far more complex and as you can imagine tracking is a huge job for agencies and for the end hirer.

Oh and just as an extra headache if a temporary worker is with more than one agency you are supposed to track the work they do through the other agencies as well.

3. Everyone involved in the employment of temporary workers and seasonal workers from the agency to the end hirer. To give you a tangible example to give this some context...

I recently attended an AWR consultation through the REC and was speaking to the HR Director of a household name bakery firm that produce bread. Their production is closely linked to the weather as consumer purchase patterns follow it, so they don't have a set production run and therefore depend on huge numbers of temporary workers.

If they were to fully implement AWR they have calculated that their staff costs will rise by £2m a year, that is a huge chunk from their profit as they can't pass the cost on to the consumer.

They are now looking at ways of avoiding AWR which will result in either putting people on Swedish Derogation contracts which effectively removes the rights around pay or stopping using temporary workers.

So option one the workers are no better off or option two some of them are going to be out of work while the agencies that formerly supplied them will go to the wall.

4. It depends on the industry. Some temporary agencies will take some of the cost others will pass it on to the hirer, some hirer's will swallow the cost others will pass it on to the consumer.

While the principles of AWR are good the reality of the legislation they have introduced is ill thought through, too heavy handed and will not have the desired effect.

At a time when unemployment is an ever increasing problem the introduction of AWR couldn't be more ill advised or poorly timed. It will damage the UK job market and seriously impact employers access to a temporary flexible labour market which has been crucial in our economy the last 10 years and we are putting ourselves at a serious disadvantage to our European counterparts.

Okay, thanks for that.

Just to clarify something, it's 12 weeks (not solid as you've said) working in a placement at a specific company, is it?

How does that work for a large group? Say someone did 6 weeks temping at Waitrose and then 6 weeks at John Lewis (just as an example)?

It does sound a hell of a ballache in terms of the administration of it (especially where it is not a simple continuous placement for more than 12 weeks).

When you mention your example (and obviously I'm not trying to extract details about their business), are the extra costs mostly the increase in pay or is that the administration, tracking and so on, too?

The legislation is ludicrous. As an example, it gives temporary workers the right after 12 weeks to find out what permanent staff at the company earn for an equivalent job.

[tonyh29]

True but it took the conventional train 45 miles to get up to its top speed and just as long to stop again .. So maglev has advantages on performance and potentially lower maintenance costs

The Japanese are building a new Shinkansen line using this technology ... It's the future man

[snowychap]

The legislation is ludicrous. As an example, it gives temporary workers the right after 12 weeks to find out what permanent staff at the company earn for an equivalent job.

Not on an individual basis, surely?

[Risso]

The legislation is ludicrous. As an example, it gives temporary workers the right after 12 weeks to find out what permanent staff at the company earn for an equivalent job.

Not on an individual basis, surely?

As far as I know, yes it does, because there might only be one individual doing the same job as you. The worst thing about the new regs (which as far as I can tell have been foisted upon us by Europe in the main) is that it's going to take a lot of time consuming and expensive tribunals to set precedents, as under the rules agency workers can take anybody in the chain, eg agency, umbrella firm or end client (or all three) to a tribunal. What I've heard from a lot of contractors is that they are now struggling to get 6 month contracts as companies are worried about what the rules will mean in the long run.

[bickster]

True but it took the conventional train 45 miles to get up to its top speed and just as long to stop again .. So maglev has advantages on performance and potentially lower maintenance costs

The Japanese are building a new Shinkansen line using this technology ... It's the future man

You'll be dead before thats finished, already the proposed completion date is 2045, I can imagine you can add another ten years to this

[snowychap]

The legislation is ludicrous. As an example, it gives temporary workers the right after 12 weeks to find out what permanent staff at the company earn for an equivalent job.

Not on an individual basis, surely?

As far as I know, yes it does, because there might only be one individual doing the same job as you.

Indirectly, perhaps this may end up being a good thing. It may mean that firms are prevented from forcing their employess in to accepting non-disclosure (of salary) clauses and, where pay scales are not explicit, it may help those permanent workers who are also underpaid in respect of their peers.

It probably won't, though. I'd guess a lot (or most) employers would use that as a means to drive down salaries and wages where possible.

[VILLAFC2000]

Is it wrong for a politician to make Homophobic comments in Parliment...?

[Awol]

Is it wrong for a politician to make Homophobic comments in Parliment...?

No idea what you are talking about but is it even tenuously related to the economy?

If not, wrong thread.

[VILLAFC2000]

Is it wrong for a politician to make Homophobic comments in Parliment...?

No idea what you are talking about but is it even tenuously related to the economy?

If not, wrong thread.

oh but it is so the right place....!

Completely shows how Gideon is alienated from the vast majority of people from this country. The question that is put to him - he does not even give the people who are suffering from his actions 2 seconds of concern.

[thetrees]

It doesn't do anything of the sort. It does show that he is something of a tosser, the sort of individual that even a non-violent person would want to hit.

It also shows him as rude, not for his snivelling throwaway comment at the end, but for his holding a conversation with the person to his left while he should be listening to the person addressing him.

His end comment was a typical playground point-scoring tactic, where the bully employs a perceived weakness in is prey to attack him, rather like people who refer to Osborne by the christian name that he preferred to drop when he was a child.

[colhint]

that was a year ago, I thought it had just happened reading the post

[kidlewis]

Is Sarkozy the Blair to Merkel' Bush?

[LondonLax]

I really don't want to picture Merkel's bush.

[tonyh29]

I really don't want to picture Merkel's bush.

[drat01]

His end comment was a typical playground point-scoring tactic, where the bully employs a perceived weakness in is prey to attack him, rather like people who refer to Osborne by the christian name that he preferred to drop when he was a child.

Calling him Gideon, his given name, one he chose to drop to appear more "straightforward", something that he fails in all of the time. As you rightly say his action were typically rude and his barbed comment are not the first from him, remember his humorous taunt about Brown and autistism? The man is obnoxious, and typifies a lot of what is wrong with the Tory party