Going 2-0 up and not winning

[HongKongVillan]

Just now, Mantis said:

 

Think there may be some crossed wires here. I wasn't saying we're bad at holding onto 2-0 leads, and especially this season we've been on the whole very good. My point was that the number of times we have been 2-0 up and thrown it away in the Premier League era does seem rather high.

Fair point if you are talking about the whole PL era, but then again I don't have the stats myself but I would think most PL clubs apart from the scum 6 minus spuds would say they have been there before.

[GlobalVillan]

34 minutes ago, LakotaDakota said:

Going back to where it feels like it started with Macheda in 2010

2023/24 - Utd & Brentford

2021/22 - City, Wolves & Leeds* (3-1 up rather than 2-0)

2018/19 - Preston, Leeds
Reversals (All Draws) - Forest, Hull & Sheff

2017/18 - Sheff Utd

2015/16 - Leicester

2013/14 - Liverpool
Reversal (Draw) - West Brom

2012/13 - West Brom, Utd & Everton* (3-1 up)

2011/12
Reversal (Draw) - QPR

2010/11 - Utd

14 times we have failed to win from being 2 goals up against recovering from 2 down 5 times

I dont think we were 2 up in the Macheda game were we?

Either way, that wasn't at all where it started. The Van Nistelrooy gane at VP is still the worst and most painful 2 goal surrender I can remember.

In terms of the bigger picture, Stoke was bad, but the Leicester one was pivotal in both us getting relagated and them winning the league.

I wonder what would have happened had we won that day. Momentum and all that.

Anyway, today is nowhere near the levels of those examples, given how far ahead of Man United we are, and we still have plenty of time to get the few points we need to finish 5th.

 

Edited April 6 by GlobalVillan

[Mark Albrighton]

Just now, Mantis said:

 

Think there may be some crossed wires here. I wasn't saying we're bad at holding onto 2-0 leads, and especially this season we've been on the whole very good. My point was that the number of times we have been 2-0 up and thrown it away in the Premier League era does seem rather high.

I know what you mean, but I suspect it’s probably a form of observation bias. I can think of the number of times we’ve done it in the premier league era because it annoyed me greatly.

I can’t tell you an equal amount of times Spurs or Everton have done so because it didn’t bother me. It probably made me laugh and I promptly forgot about it. It’s probably quite similar if we looked at the stats (which I know is what you’re asking for).

We will have done it fewer times than say Liverpool over the past X years, because they’ve been a better side and better sides are less likely to have such a record.

[Leeroy]

It's a club mentality thing. When the pressure is on we can't handle it, it was the same in 2009, 1999, 1993. Not sure why we choke and bottle it with the things we've won in our history but we do.

 

That side we put out today was good enough to beat Brentford so it's nothing to do with not being good enough or injuries. We rested players on Wednesday so we could play our best team against Brentford and it's backfired as I expected it to.

 

Not much we can do about it as fans but suffer.

[LakotaDakota]

10 minutes ago, GlobalVillan said:

I dont think we were 2 up in the Macheda game were we?

 

Goals were: Young 72, Albrighton 76, Macheda 81, Vidic 85

Sure none of it really has any bearing on today, Durán was 6 when Macheda scored

Edited April 6 by LakotaDakota

[Galway Lion]

54 minutes ago, VillaJ100 said:

I don't think he's in a position to really comment, as soon as a bit (not a lot) of competition in the form of Ings came in he went to shit and lost all his confidence and basically said he can't have a competition and needs smoke blown up his arse constantly to be confident and perform.

Wtf have you been smoking?

[GlobalVillan]

2 minutes ago, LakotaDakota said:

Goals were: Young 72, Albrighton 76, Macheda 81, Vidic 85

I was thinking of the one we lost 3-2 in the last minute. Is that another one?

[LakotaDakota]

1 minute ago, GlobalVillan said:

I was thinking of the one we lost 3-2 in the last minute. Is that another one?

2012/13 Was a 87th minute winner from Chicarito

[GlobalVillan]

13 minutes ago, LakotaDakota said:

2012/13 Was a 87th minute winner from Chicarito

No that's a different game.

I was sure the "Macheda game' was the one we lost 3-2 and he scored in the last minute. It was at Old Trafford and I think Carew scored.

EDIT: Just checked and I was right. We were never 2 up in the Macheda game. Ronaldo scored 1st. Macheda got the winner on 93 mins.

Edited April 6 by GlobalVillan

[Tayls]

We are very very good at it. 

[LakotaDakota]

30 minutes ago, GlobalVillan said:

No that's a different game.

I was sure the "Macheda game' was the one we lost 3-2 and he scored in the last minute. It was at Old Trafford and I think Carew scored.

EDIT: Just checked and I was right. We were never 2 up in the Macheda game. Ronaldo scored 1st. Macheda got the winner on 93 mins.

Ah, that is back further than i went, Saw the Macheda goal to spark the 2-2 in 2010 and didn't check back further, someone else mentioned the fa cup game in 2002 against utd too. Definitely happens too often against utd for sure but not sure if we are any worse than any other team in general overall.

There is an article from 2022 that shows how often teams had won/lost from 2 up/down in the PL era, we were on both lists but nowhere near the worst. Shame it doesn't show Draws as we would be on that list too.

https://theanalyst.com/eu/2022/03/why-are-two-goal-leads-still-feared-an-investigation/

Premier League All-Time	Wins from 2+ goals down (upto March 24th 2022)
Manchester United	12
Tottenham Hotspur	8
Arsenal	6
Liverpool	6
Aston Villa	5
Newcastle United	5
Wolverhampton Wanderers	5
Chelsea	4
Everton	4
Manchester City	4
Southampton	4

Premier League All-Time    Defeats from 2+ goals up (upto March 24th 2022)
Tottenham Hotspur    8
Manchester City    6
Southampton    6
West Ham United    6
Aston Villa    5
Arsenal    4
Everton    4
Liverpool    4
West Bromwich Albion    4

 

Edited April 6 by LakotaDakota

[Tom13]

1 hour ago, Rodders said:

Watkins calling out in the post match again. Rightly so. Kind of thing which will motivate him to leave if we keep doing it. Doesn't want to keep playing with losers and bottlers. We're a very insecure side incapable of learning.

What's he said? Should post quotes.

[VillaJ100]

The reason why me and others have this fear of Man U pipping us no matter how remote is because of these defeat from the jaws of victory events, over literally years, especially to those fetid cysts. It feels like you can never relax no matter how far the goals or points lead as we always have the ability to commit seppuku it seems. It wasn't so long ago we were 8 ahead of arsenal in a race for 4th and finished behind them. We were even 12 ahead of Everton and finished below them! That trauma lingers

[DaveAV1]

57 minutes ago, Leeroy said:

It's a club mentality thing. When the pressure is on we can't handle it, it was the same in 2009, 1999, 1993. Not sure why we choke and bottle it with the things we've won in our history but we do.

 

That side we put out today was good enough to beat Brentford so it's nothing to do with not being good enough or injuries. We rested players on Wednesday so we could play our best team against Brentford and it's backfired as I expected it to.

 

Not much we can do about it as fans but suffer.

I think you’ve been reading the “Slippy G Psycology guide to football management” and putting too much store into it. I’m not sure it works particularly well!! UTV

[DaveAV1]

3 minutes ago, VillaJ100 said:

The reason why me and others have this fear of Man U pipping us no matter how remote is because of these defeat from the jaws of victory events, over literally years, especially to those fetid cysts. It feels like you can never relax no matter how far the goals or points lead as we always have the ability to commit seppuku it seems. It wasn't so long ago we were 8 ahead of arsenal in a race for 4th and finished behind them. We were even 12 ahead of Everton and finished below them! That trauma lingers

If you let it. 

[beasley14]

2 hours ago, tinker said:

We chased the game more at 2- 0 up than we did at 0-0 , poor game management,  we seem to want to try and score 4 goals in every game.

In fairness until today we had the best record in the league for points gained from winning positions. 

Doesn't stop today's game being a mini disaster but it does show we usually see games out when ahead.

[tinker]

Just now, beasley14 said:

In fairness until today we had the best record in the league for points gained from winning positions. 

Doesn't stop today's game being a mini disaster but it does show we usually see games out when ahead.

That's great, we need to improve..... at 0-0 we kept possession and never took chances with through balls because we wanted to maintain possession and work a goal with minimal risk. At 2-0 up we abandoned that and started spraying balls all over the pitch and had runners from almost every position trying to break Brentfords press and score again, we played right into Brentfords hands, it allowed them to hit us on the break once our attack broke down, its was farcical to watch.

Just keep the ball and kill the game with injuries, moans and other game play. It's irritating that we are so close to challenging the very top but are lacking in something so simple, Brentford did it at 2-3 and 3-3.

[beasley14]

1 minute ago, tinker said:

That's great, we need to improve..... at 0-0 we kept possession and never took chances with through balls because we wanted to maintain possession and work a goal with minimal risk. At 2-0 up we abandoned that and started spraying balls all over the pitch and had runners from almost every position trying to break Brentfords press and score again, we played right into Brentfords hands, it allowed them to hit us on the break once our attack broke down, its was farcical to watch.

Just keep the ball and kill the game with injuries, moans and other game play. It's irritating that we are so close to challenging the very top but are lacking in something so simple, Brentford did it at 2-3 and 3-3.

I'm not disagreeing that today was a shambles, it's frustrating we didn't just resort to boring everyone to death.  It's what was needed and we have been pretty good at it up to now.  We really need to learn from this and pick up the wins we know we can.

[sharkyvilla]

One thing that annoys me is that when we go 2 goals up we stop playing out from the back so much.  For one of their goals Emi booted it long and it just came straight back, for the 3rd he got the ball and wanted to start an attack and just threw the ball out of play.  They get the ball back and score.  The thing about keeping it calm and playing out from the back is that you always have an extra player available so it's actually quite easy to keep the ball and take the sting out of the game.

It was the same against Luton and it took Lenglet to take charge and just keep the ball, run with it upfield and then pass it when everyone else was losing their heads.  

[tinker]

26 minutes ago, sharkyvilla said:

One thing that annoys me is that when we go 2 goals up we stop playing out from the back so much.  For one of their goals Emi booted it long and it just came straight back, for the 3rd he got the ball and wanted to start an attack and just threw the ball out of play.  They get the ball back and score.  The thing about keeping it calm and playing out from the back is that you always have an extra player available so it's actually quite easy to keep the ball and take the sting out of the game.

It was the same against Luton and it took Lenglet to take charge and just keep the ball, run with it upfield and then pass it when everyone else was losing their heads.  

This is exactly what I see, its so frustrating. Just keep the ball like we did at 0-0.