All this talk of squad depth. How much do we actually need?

[tomsky_11]

4 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said:

I'd put Ramsey as top 5 on the team sheet right now, 1st XI

I'd agree he is, but I also think we need numbers in that area and wouldn't want us just buying a backup for him. The 1st and 2nd XI doesn't mean so much in some areas, especially at full back and in attacking midfield areas where I'd expect a lot more rotation and different role requirements in more variable formations and approaches against different opponents. I'd expect Luiz, McGinn, Ramsey and two new signings of equal or better quality to be able to rotate in the midfield 4 between either the double pivot and the advanced roles (ie. Luiz, Mcginn and a new signing) or the advanced midfield 2 and the 10 role (Ramsey and the other new signing, plus Bailey and Buendia). If we really want to be pushing for and then trying to establish ourselves in the top 4, that is the position we need to be in.

[Jareth]

I would like it to be in a place whereby each game we argue over who deserves to start, in every position except Dibu. 

[tomsky_11]

24 minutes ago, HalfTimePost said:

I think people expecting Ramsey and McGinn to be second choice by the end of the transfer window are going to be very disappointed with the business we're likely to do.

 

As per reply to Stefan, not so much second choice in there case, but that we should be bringing in numbers in that area, and they shouldn't be worse than what we already have. I put the new signings in the "1st XI" if only to emphasise this point, if we are spending money this summer it needs to be focused on improving the first XI, by providing better than we already have or a similar level but different qualities.

Edited June 6, 2023 by tomsky_11

[david-avfc]

We need x2 in every position, but that doesn’t necessarily mean all of the back ups have to be exactly the same quality as the first choice, trying to do that is just going to lead to more headaches. I think realistically we need around 15 interchangeable first team strength players and then 6 or 7 very reliable back ups and then a couple of 3rd choicers, who could be youngsters etc

[tomsky_11]

3 minutes ago, Jareth said:

I would like it to be in a place whereby each game we argue over who deserves to start, in every position except Dibu. 

Yeah, this is where the very best teams are at, especially when you add in European competition and also wanting to push far in domestic competitions. I think in the extreme scenario of making all the finals with replays were possible, it could be as many as 33 competitive fixtures on top of 38 league games.

 

[tomsky_11]

6 minutes ago, david-avfc said:

We need x2 in every position, but that doesn’t necessarily mean all of the back ups have to be exactly the same quality as the first choice, trying to do that is just going to lead to more headaches. I think realistically we need around 15 interchangeable first team strength players and then 6 or 7 very reliable back ups and then a couple of 3rd choicers, who could be youngsters etc

GK, DC and DM I'd not expect a lot of rotation, given the players we have and the benefits of consistency in these areas. Same probably goes for at least one of the forward positions. After that, every other place in the side should be open to rotation, whether in-game (we have 5 subs and 6 rotational positions) or between games. I don't see the headache with this. We should have enough games to hand plenty of minutes around, have enough different opponents and scenarios that will require changes of shape and different roles and qualities for the same place in the team.

[HKP90]

As only 3 teams used fewer players in the PL last season (OK one of them was Man City, but that's cos they have enough depth to field a 'cup team'), and we used 10 fewer players than the teams topping that list, I'm thinking we need at least 4 or 5 challenging for first team places. We were particularly short at CF (lucky that Watkins didn't pick up an injury), DM, RW, LW and CB, and were an injury or two away from disaster in those positions.

I do not want to see two or more keepers on the bench next season.   

I would preface that by saying that I would be OK if some youth filled those spaces, although I'm not sure how many of our academy grads are good enough to warrant it.  

[Mazrim]

We need 25 including a selection of top bairns.

Martinez, New GK, Sinisalo
New RB (attacking), New RB / CB, Mings, Konsa, Carlor, New CB, Moreno, Digne, Kessler Hayden.
Luiz, Kamara, New CM (box-box), J Ramsey, McGinn, Iroegbunam.
Bailey, New Winger, A Ramsey, Buendia, 
New ST, Watkins, Archer, New #10

Move Traore, Coutinho, Chambers, Cash, Dendoncker on. etc. Duran out on loan.

8 new players. Chop chop.

[StefanAVFC]

16 hours ago, tomsky_11 said:

I'd agree he is, but I also think we need numbers in that area and wouldn't want us just buying a backup for him. The 1st and 2nd XI doesn't mean so much in some areas, especially at full back and in attacking midfield areas where I'd expect a lot more rotation and different role requirements in more variable formations and approaches against different opponents. I'd expect Luiz, McGinn, Ramsey and two new signings of equal or better quality to be able to rotate in the midfield 4 between either the double pivot and the advanced roles (ie. Luiz, Mcginn and a new signing) or the advanced midfield 2 and the 10 role (Ramsey and the other new signing, plus Bailey and Buendia). If we really want to be pushing for and then trying to establish ourselves in the top 4, that is the position we need to be in.

That's fair.

If you look at City, Ruben Diaz is their '1st choice' CB and he could be part of a first or second XI at times.

[villa4europe]

I think we have stronger squad depth than Newcastle and more youth prospects

Whether or not that's the case come September is something different

[The Fun Factory]

I suppose it is a bit of  a gamble for the club as we could bulk out the squad, only to go out early in the cups again. Hopefully not as Emery is a cup and European specialist but this would be very unvilla.

[HKP90]

32 minutes ago, The Fun Factory said:

I suppose it is a bit of  a gamble for the club as we could bulk out the squad, only to go out early in the cups again. Hopefully not as Emery is a cup and European specialist but this would be very unvilla.

We don't need a bloated squad, but we definitely need some more bods. I'd be saying that even if we were only in the Prem etc next year. Our squad is ludicrously thin in places. 

[Bazmonkey]

the problem we have with the squad is the quality...not quantity.

Outside of the first 11....the bench is substandard at best.

We have seen in last few games....a bit of tiredness settle in as the same players were playing twice a week......more so next year with Europe.

The traore's.....Bailey's....dendonkers...buendia's....will be relied upon more as more games means more potential injuries....sustaining a league...cup and European campaign is going be tough even before the squad improves.

And thats without improving the actual starting 11.....we definitely need a RB, ST and key importantly an ACM.....That KDB Ordegard role that can run the midfield.

You could say a LB/LW depending on where Moreno will play. 

 

 

 

 

[PussEKatt]

As you say,we definately need more quality players but we dont need them all for next season.Players like Dendonkers etc will only play the odd game ( when needed ) But we definately need a proven striker,IMHo if we had a proven PL striker we would be better off by about 12 points.

[IrishVilla10]

4 minutes ago, PussEKatt said:

As you say,we definately need more quality players but we dont need them all for next season.Players like Dendonkers etc will only play the odd game ( when needed ) But we definately need a proven striker,IMHo if we had a proven PL striker we would be better off by about 12 points.

We had one in Ings to be fair and Ollie dipped after he arrived. Plus there’s no prem proven strikers that won’t cost 50 million quid 

[Czarnikjak]

1 hour ago, PussEKatt said:

As you say,we definately need more quality players but we dont need them all for next season.Players like Dendonkers etc will only play the odd game ( when needed ) But we definately need a proven striker,IMHo if we had a proven PL striker we would be better off by about 12 points.

People still harping on about "proven PL strikers"? What a load of tosh.

Haland and Kane are the only 2 more proven Premier League strikers than Watkins. Which one do you fancy? Or maybe you want Ings back? He was signed as proven pl striker.

[John]

I would be happy with our squad looking like this at the window close:

GK: Martinez & new signing. 

RB: Cash & new signing. LB: Moreno & Digne.

CB: Mings, Konsa, Carlos & new signing.

Midfield: Luiz, Kamara, Coutinho, Buendia, Ramsey (J), McGinn, Ramsey (A), Iroegbunam, new signing & new signing.

Wide players: New signings (2).

Strikers: Watkins, Archer & new signing (with Duran going out on loan).

Depth wise: 

[PussEKatt]

23 minutes ago, Czarnikjak said:

People still harping on about "proven PL strikers"? What a load of tosh.

Haland and Kane are the only 2 more proven Premier League strikers than Watkins. Which one do you fancy? Or maybe you want Ings back? He was signed as proven pl striker.

I personally would like to see T.Abraham back.

[Czarnikjak]

2 minutes ago, PussEKatt said:

I personally would like to see T.Abraham back.

He is not a "premier league proven" striker. Much less than Watkins at least. He only has one season out of 3 with double digit goals in Premier League. Watkins has 3 out of 3.

Besides, he's just done his ACL...why the heck would you sign someone with ACL?

[TomC]

Deano and SG talked a good game about rotation but almost never did it. They never seemed to trust players beyond a core group of maybe 11-13.

Unai did seem to make changes to his starting XI more often than those two, at least based on tactics if not for rotation's sake. But in the end, if he's going to rotate, he needs players he can trust.