UK Strategic Planning

[desensitized43]

39 minutes ago, HKP90 said:

Crossrail cost 18.8 Billion for a single, albeit admittedly long line. Given Brexit, and the generally poor financial state of the country, something that will only get worse, no way could that sort of money be brought to bear. It also took 14 years to build that line. It would be 2050 at least before anything opened in Brum. 

I agree Birmingham desperately needs something like the tube, but it will never happen. 

An elevated system like in Chicago would be more likely, but even that would be astronomically expensive. 

We don't know, however, what technologically advanced alternatives might arise that would be cheaper. 

It's a great suggestion but all I can think of is the Monorail episode of the Simpsons!

The issue with the currently Tram system they've built is that:

a. It's been done using the shittiest, cheapest, lowest quality trams and materials. It's literally falling apart already because, as with anything in this country, we hold a bidding process and give it to the lowest bidder regardless of how unfeasible it is to produce for whatever they've bid and then have a moan when they inevitably come back asking for more money.

b. It doesn't actually go anywhere anyone wants to go so no one uses it. If they'd started at somewhere like Halesowen which has no railway station and terrible transport links down the Hagley road and said "right, we're going to sort that out" someone might actually use it.

c. It's also meant to be a replacement for buses, right? So the routes where the tram goes they need to stop the buses going otherwise you've just got 2 concurrent transport systems doing the same thing.

 

[HKP90]

7 minutes ago, desensitized43 said:

It's a great suggestion but all I can think of is the Monorail episode of the Simpsons!

The issue with the currently Tram system they've built is that:

a. It's been done using the shittiest, cheapest, lowest quality trams and materials. It's literally falling apart already because, as with anything in this country, we hold a bidding process and give it to the lowest bidder regardless of how unfeasible it is to produce for whatever they've bid and then have a moan when they inevitably come back asking for more money.

b. It doesn't actually go anywhere anyone wants to go so no one uses it. If they'd started at somewhere like Halesowen which has no railway station and terrible transport links down the Hagley road and said "right, we're going to sort that out" someone might actually use it.

c. It's also meant to be a replacement for buses, right? So the routes where the tram goes they need to stop the buses going otherwise you've just got 2 concurrent transport systems doing the same thing.

 

Couldn't agree more with all your points.

Apart from unintentially slagging off the No. 9 night bus to Halesowen (we used to call it Fight Bus, or the Drunktank).

[Genie]

17 minutes ago, VILLAMARV said:

Perhaps we could call them High Streets?

I’m sure we have some of those already, although they are covered in dust as everyone moved out.

[bobzy]

4 minutes ago, Genie said:

I’m sure we have some of those already, although they are covered in dust as everyone moved out.

Yeah, people can't be arsed walking there as they can just order everything online or drive to an outlet.

[bickster]

1 hour ago, HKP90 said:

Crossrail cost 18.8 Billion for a single, albeit admittedly long line. Given Brexit, and the generally poor financial state of the country, something that will only get worse, no way could that sort of money be brought to bear.

Given Brexit and the poor finances etc. Capital building projects are a great way to help build the economy. Massive capital building projects are usually funded by bonds / gilts etc not from general taxation

A national economy does not work like household finances, it's a ludicrous argument that the Tories have been using for decades and as such it has sunk into the national psyche. It's bollocks and it's always been bollocks

[Genie]

11 minutes ago, bobzy said:

Yeah, people can't be arsed walking there as they can just order everything online or drive to an outlet.

Tamworth town centre has been killed by the retail park. Even the banks are closing now. All that will be left will be Turkish style hairdressers, card shops and bookies.

Even the nightlife is dead now compared to 20 years ago when I used to go a lot. 

[bickster]

Just now, Genie said:

Even the banks are closing now

That has nothing to do with retail parks, banks are closing because no-one uses them any more

[Genie]

Just now, bickster said:

That has nothing to do with retail parks, banks are closing because no-one uses them any more

Yes I agree, it was more about the death of the high street in general. I only go into the town now to get my (and my sons) hair cut.

[HKP90]

19 minutes ago, bickster said:

Given Brexit and the poor finances etc. Capital building projects are a great way to help build the economy. Massive capital building projects are usually funded by bonds / gilts etc not from general taxation

A national economy does not work like household finances, it's a ludicrous argument that the Tories have been using for decades and as such it has sunk into the national psyche. It's bollocks and it's always been bollocks

I have money in bonds (UK corporate) and they are tanking, cos no one is investing money in UK business (brexit again). 

 

[ender4]

1 hour ago, VILLAMARV said:

Perhaps we could call them High Streets?

Is that the place you go to get high on those little gas canisters?

[Chindie]

In fairness this is the bright future of the high street

Depression personified, and absolutely deserted.

[HKP90]

1 hour ago, Chindie said:

In fairness this is the bright future of the high street

Depression personified, and absolutely deserted.

My home town, Dudley, is a case study for town centre decline. 

With Cradley Heath, my other old homestead, they just demolished the entirety of the town centre and replaced it with a Tesco megastore.

All these planning chickens, made for short term profit, come home to roost eventually.

[MakemineVanilla]

2 hours ago, desensitized43 said:

The issue with the currently Tram system...

 

The present passion for trams is a bit of a mystery to me, as having decided that they weren't efficient back in the early 1950s, they seem to have changed their minds, just like they have with high-rise housing solutions, and have now conveniently forgotten all the old arguments.

We know that in America the motor industry lobbied government to run down public transport, so commuters would need to buy a vehicle, and so it is possible the Brits did the same.

They destroyed the centre of Brum in the 1960s to make it car-friendly and now they are doing the opposite.

We have to consider whether the motives are economic rather than idealistic, as they claim.

 

 

[bickster]

2 minutes ago, MakemineVanilla said:

The present passion for trams is a bit of a mystery to me, as having decided that they weren't efficient back in the early 1950s,

Trams went away because the reliability of motorised buses vastly increased and there was no need to maintain a network. The cost of maintaining the "network" as such was then passed onto the council / highways agency (or whatever it was called that particular week)

So efficiency for the public transport co's but not the overall efficiency because the taxpayer maintained the network not the transport providers.

Modern trams (or more technically light rail) tend to be owned by the taxpayer in some form or other now, so the situation is entirely different

[MakemineVanilla]

30 minutes ago, bickster said:

Trams went away because the reliability of motorised buses vastly increased and there was no need to maintain a network. The cost of maintaining the "network" as such was then passed onto the council / highways agency (or whatever it was called that particular week)

So efficiency for the public transport co's but not the overall efficiency because the taxpayer maintained the network not the transport providers.

Modern trams (or more technically light rail) tend to be owned by the taxpayer in some form or other now, so the situation is entirely different

I naturally defer to your greater expertise but I offer a quote from: https://bathtrams.uk/why-were-trams-closed-down-and-removed-in-british-and-other-cities/

Quote

The drive for tramway closure came from a few vociferous Members of Parliament with interests in the car  manufacturing business.This has lead to the present mess in UK cities, but not in cities that retained them, as in Germany, or France that has reinstalled over 27, on realising their grave error.

 

[bickster]

4 minutes ago, MakemineVanilla said:

I naturally defer to your greater expertise but I offer a quote from: https://bathtrams.uk/why-were-trams-closed-down-and-removed-in-british-and-other-cities/

 

The following are also from the very same article you posted

Quote

One of the main reasons given for not installing trams or trolleybus networks are that they are fixed to a given route and cannot be diverted at a moments notice. In the case of London’s trolleybuses the LCC required LT to pay for the upkeep of the poles that supported the wires and thus they were replaced by the Routemaster.

Quote

Another factor is that local councils used profits from their trams to offset the rates and failed to make provision for renewing tracks and equipment. So by the 1930s tramways which had opened in the 1890s or 1900s were wearing out, and without reserves to renew them the cheapest option was to replace trams with buses. Those tramways which did survive the 1930s were neglected in the war and were closed in the 1940s or 1950s

 

[Chindie]

Trams are **** shit.

[Xann]

1 hour ago, Chindie said:

Trams are **** shit.

Well, that sort of depends. Say your city has the remnants of the pre Beeching train lines they can go fast on.

Ikea is on this line, it's easily the least stressful way to get there.

[sidcow]

2 hours ago, Chindie said:

Trams are **** shit.

That's utter bollox. 

[Xela]

9 hours ago, Genie said:

Tamworth town centre has been killed by the retail park. Even the banks are closing now. All that will be left will be Turkish style hairdressers, card shops and bookies.

Even the nightlife is dead now compared to 20 years ago when I used to go a lot. 

When I was there the other Saturday, it was just drinkers and eaters out! No one was shopping. 

As an aside, Ventura Park must be one of the most popular retail parks in the country. It is insanely popular. A lot of retail parks fizzle out after a while (The Fort, for one) but Ventura goes from strength to strength.