Languages, accents, dialects an' t'ing

[mjmooney]

Just been reading a US v UK argument on FB about pronunciation.

Basically, the Brits were saying (as I would) that 'sauce' and 'source' are homonyms - they are pronounced exactly the same. 

What intrigued me was not so much that the Americans disagreed, but the number of them who were utterly astonished by this claim. Comments like"Whaaat? In what world could 'sauce' and 'source' ever sound the same? That's totally weird!" etc. 

I get it that Americans would say something like 'soss' and 'sourrrce', but..why the surprise? Have these people never heard British accents in films or TV shows? 

 

Edited March 3, 2023 by mjmooney

[Mark Albrighton]

1 hour ago, mjmooney said:

Just been reading a US v UK argument on FB about pronunciation.

Basically, the Brits were saying (as I would) that 'sauce' and 'source' are homonyms - they are pronounced exactly the same. 

What intrigued me was not so much that the Americans disagreed, but the number of them who were utterly astonished by this claim. Comments like"Whaaat? In what world could 'sauce' and 'source' ever sound the same? That's totally weird!" etc. 

I get it that Americans would say something like 'soss' and 'sourrrce', but..why the surprise? Have these people never heard British accents in films or TV shows? 

 

Surprising to read that. 

Here’s a clip from Friends (the context is Chandler has just had a third nipple/“nubin” removed). When coming to terms with what he may have done, he says “source” how we would.

From the same programme, here is Monica asking her previously disruptive staff (now disciplined thanks to Joey’s assistance) whether they think she’s a figure of fun while she’s covered in sauce. She also says “sauce” how we would say the word.

Maybe this is a scenario similar to the one where some Americans say “rowt” instead of “root” for the word “route”.

But if you asked those same Americans is there a highway where one could receive their kicks, they might reference a well known song and pronounce it differently and not think anything of it.

[Rolta]

1 hour ago, mjmooney said:

Just been reading a US v UK argument on FB about pronunciation.

Basically, the Brits were saying (as I would) that 'sauce' and 'source' are homonyms - they are pronounced exactly the same. 

What intrigued me was not so much that the Americans disagreed, but the number of them who were utterly astonished by this claim. Comments like"Whaaat? In what world could 'sauce' and 'source' ever sound the same? That's totally weird!" etc. 

I get it that Americans would say something like 'soss' and 'sourrrce', but..why the surprise? Have these people never heard British accents in films or TV shows? 

 

If I was going to give Facebook a defining characteristic (in the groups anyway) it would be the existence of a high number of stupid-seeming comments. In the same light, I'm not sure these comments should be used to form any kind of generalisation!

[mjmooney]

3 hours ago, Rolta said:

If I was going to give Facebook a defining characteristic (in the groups anyway) it would be the existence of a high number of stupid-seeming comments. In the same light, I'm not sure these comments should be used to form any kind of generalisation!

Yeah, I agree. But it's not like it was just one or two of them. It was a big thread, with a lot of contributors, and not one (American) voice of dissent. Every one of them professed to be shocked by the very idea of 'source = sauce'. 

[il_serpente]

11 hours ago, Mark Albrighton said:

Surprising to read that. 

Here’s a clip from Friends (the context is Chandler has just had a third nipple/“nubin” removed). When coming to terms with what he may have done, he says “source” how we would.

From the same programme, here is Monica asking her previously disruptive staff (now disciplined thanks to Joey’s assistance) whether they think she’s a figure of fun while she’s covered in sauce. She also says “sauce” how we would say the word.

Maybe this is a scenario similar to the one where some Americans say “rowt” instead of “root” for the word “route”.

But if you asked those same Americans is there a highway where one could receive their kicks, they might reference a well known song and pronounce it differently and not think anything of it.

 

I hear two different words in those two videos.  Maybe the reason you Brits say two different words the same way is because you hear two different words as the same.

Most of the Americans I know say "root", not "rowt".   I don't even think it's a regional thing, though it may have started that way.   I do send my TCP/IP packets through a "rowter", though, and use a "rowter" to make grooves in wood (and ice, but that's another story).

[mjmooney]

7 minutes ago, il_serpente said:

 

I hear two different words in those two videos.  Maybe the reason you Brits say two different words the same way is because you hear two different words as the same.

Most of the Americans I know say "root", not "rowt".   I don't even think it's a regional thing, though it may have started that way.   I do send my TCP/IP packets through a "rowter", though, and use a "rowter" to make grooves in wood (and ice, but that's another story).

But where do you stand on the sauce/source question? Identical pronunciation, or not? 

Other US VTers opinions also sought (pronounced 'sort'). 

[il_serpente]

On the topic of British vs American English:

Are there specific rules for when to use "while" vs "whilst"?   Over here we just use "while" in every situation where I see folks use "whilst" on VT.

Also, I may have posted about this before, but such is the state of my memory that I can't recall and I'm too lazy to go back through my posts:

I find it curious that the phrase "just about" means the complete opposite  on the two sides of the Atlantic.   Over here, when you say, "I just about made it" you mean "I almost made it, but not quite."    For you, it means "I made it, but just barely."    Very close in meaning in the sense that both describe being very close to a demarcation line of some sort, but on opposite sides such that the meanings couldn't be further apart.

[il_serpente]

5 minutes ago, mjmooney said:

But where do you stand on the sauce/source question? Identical pronunciation, or not? 

Other US VTers opinions also sought (pronounced 'sort'). 

They are two different pronunciations, with the most notable difference being that one has an "r" sound in it and the other doesn't.   The vowel sound is also slightly different, though.  Some Northeasterners will probably pronounce them the same, as a lot of them drop their r's.

[Davkaus]

30 minutes ago, il_serpente said:

On the topic of British vs American English:

Are there specific rules for when to use "while" vs "whilst"? 

The guideline for deciding whether to use whilst is "are you intending to be incredibly pretentious?".

[mjmooney]

10 hours ago, Davkaus said:

The guideline for deciding whether to use whilst is "are you intending to be incredibly pretentious?".

Not sure I've ever actually said 'whilst' except as a parody. 

[mjmooney]

11 hours ago, il_serpente said:

I find it curious that the phrase "just about" means the complete opposite  on the two sides of the Atlantic.   Over here, when you say, "I just about made it" you mean "I almost made it, but not quite."    For you, it means "I made it, but just barely."    Very close in meaning in the sense that both describe being very close to a demarcation line of some sort, but on opposite sides such that the meanings couldn't be further apart.

That's interesting, never knew about that US usage. In the UK, 'just about' definitely refers to success in an action (but making the point that it was a close thing). For 'almost', we'd say, well... 'almost'. 

[mjmooney]

Just had a argument with the missus about the pronunciation of 'pepper' (as in spice) and 'Peppa' (as in 'Pig'). I say they're exactly the same. She says they're different. 

[Seat68]

22 minutes ago, mjmooney said:

Just had a argument with the missus about the pronunciation of 'pepper' (as in spice) and 'Peppa' (as in 'Pig'). I say they're exactly the same. She says they're different. 

I have just spent way too long carrying out an experiment here at home and recorded Salt and pepper and peppa pig, trimmed to remove and pepper/pig, both are indistinguishable from the other. 

[mjmooney]

39 minutes ago, Seat68 said:

I have just spent way too long carrying out an experiment here at home and recorded Salt and pepper and peppa pig, trimmed to remove and pepper/pig, both are indistinguishable from the other. 

It might be because my wife is from the west country. They do like their rhotic final 'R's. Even when they aren't there. In 'Doc Martin', the character Louisa is often referred to as 'Lou-eez-urrr' by the Cornish locals. 

[icouldtelltheworld]

2 hours ago, mjmooney said:

It might be because my wife is from the west country. They do like their rhotic final 'R's. Even when they aren't there. In 'Doc Martin', the character Louisa is often referred to as 'Lou-eez-urrr' by the Cornish locals. 

Think you've hit the nail on the head tbh. When I was doing my PGCE, a lass from the west country commented how weird it was that us Brummies would pronounce 'mentor' as if it was spelt 'menta', whereas she would emphasise the R at the end of the word 

[mjmooney]

23 minutes ago, icouldtelltheworld said:

Think you've hit the nail on the head tbh. When I was doing my PGCE, a lass from the west country commented how weird it was that us Brummies would pronounce 'mentor' as if it was spelt 'menta', whereas she would emphasise the R at the end of the word 

Ah now, I'm a Brummie (albeit exiled in Yorkshire), and I'd say 'men-tore', and not 'menta'. But I wouldn't go as far as rolling that final 'R'. 

 

[icouldtelltheworld]

1 minute ago, mjmooney said:

Ah now, I'm a Brummie (albeit exiled in Yorkshire), and I'd say 'men-tore', and not 'menta'. But I wouldn't go as far as rolling that final 'R'. 

 

Interesting, could be a generational thing I guess 

[mjmooney]

4 minutes ago, icouldtelltheworld said:

Interesting, could be a generational thing I guess 

My initial thought was that it's more that I did five years of Latin at school (which probably is generational, come to think of it), differentiating the '-or' endings from the '-er' endings. 

But thinking about a few examples, that doesn't hold water. I'd pronounce 'tutor' as 't'yuter', so I dunno. 

[blandy]

5 hours ago, mjmooney said:

Just had a argument with the missus about the pronunciation of 'pepper' (as in spice) and 'Peppa' (as in 'Pig'). I say they're exactly the same. She says they're different. 

Very slightly different, to me. Though I lived in Cornwall for a while, I don't think that's why.

Pepper = peppur

Peppa = peppa(h) with a short "ah" - as in acid, not an Arrr.

[Chindie]

I want to say there's a very slight difference in the pronunciation for me, but when I say 'salt and pepper... Peppa pig' they're basically indistinguishable.