Steero113 Posted July 31, 2023 Share Posted July 31, 2023 (edited) 4 hours ago, DJBOB said: I think people have to accept that it wilL be caught out eventually. The press intensity is lower in pre-season but that’s just the risk we play with if we continue the high line. City got caught in the press 4 times last season leading to goals. Arsenal - 7 Newcastle - 3 United - 3 Liverpool - 6 B&HA - 4 Spurs - 10 We will be getting caught out plenty this season don't you worry. From high line and from playing out from the back. Edited July 31, 2023 by Steero113 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post DJBOB Posted July 31, 2023 Popular Post Share Posted July 31, 2023 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Steero113 said: City got caught in the press 4 times last season leading to goals. Arsenal - 7 Newcastle - 3 United - 3 Liverpool - 6 B&HA - 4 Spurs - 10 We will be getting caught out plenty this season don't you worry. Liverpool/Arsenal/City are the closest analogs of the high line. It will cost us goals - no doubt about it. Watch Unai's team at Villareal and it was the same. But we have fast recovery CB's and one of the top sweeper keepers and 1v1 keepers in the world. Liverpool, in form, would still be targeted with high balls over the top and force 1v1 defending and Alisson sweeping. These are the risks you take as a top team. In exchange, we can pin opponents back, press them high in their own half to cause big turnovers, and let's us remain aggressive out of possession. We have to accept this as a fanbase. Same as all the nervous titters when we were trying to play out of our own box. That high line will be exposed now and then but there are many advantages to it and that is where we need to go as a top team. And don't worry - Unai will drop into his 622 or 532 when needed if we need to. Edited July 31, 2023 by DJBOB 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CVByrne Posted July 31, 2023 Share Posted July 31, 2023 41 minutes ago, DJBOB said: It will cost us goals What does this even mean though. Defending deep will also cost us goals on conceding space between the lines or conceding space to opposition easily. It's just where we leave the space that's the question. Do we give them space between our block between goal keeper and back line or do we give them space between their goal and our forward line or space between our lines. By choosing to engage them closer to their goal we can turn over balls in dangerous areas close to their goal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marka Ragnos Posted July 31, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted July 31, 2023 (edited) So many possibilities, but would like to see something like this, with JPB (RWB) in for Cash or Diaby, Buendia in for Diaby, Konsa (in for Diego), McGinn and Kamara for Dougie and Youri, Digne for Moreno, and Archer for Ollie as subs. The tricky part for me is what do with all our midfield talent. Our midfield cup runneth over ... I also would have no qualms with Konsa starting instead of Diego in this set-up. I want to see Bailey back on the left. Edited July 31, 2023 by Marka Ragnos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gilbertoAVFC Posted July 31, 2023 Share Posted July 31, 2023 I suspect sometimes Cash and Digne/Moreno will compete for one spot in the team. If Cash plays, I think we end up playing the three with Torres/Mings covering as a defensive-minded, narrow left-back and Konsa covering Cash. If Moreno plays, I think we drop Cash and play Konsa as a defensive right-back to cover a marauding Moreno. Just not sure it's quite a back five or three, think it'll be like a back 3.5 with the other "wing-back" more of an attacking player. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HKP90 Posted July 31, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted July 31, 2023 33 minutes ago, CVByrne said: What does this even mean though. Defending deep will also cost us goals on conceding space between the lines or conceding space to opposition easily. It's just where we leave the space that's the question. Do we give them space between our block between goal keeper and back line or do we give them space between their goal and our forward line or space between our lines. By choosing to engage them closer to their goal we can turn over balls in dangerous areas close to their goal. As I understand from reading 'Inverting the Pyramid' the effectiveness of pressing was backed up by a number of studies going back to the days of Viktor Maslov and Dynamo Kiev (Kyiv?). There is no definitive way of playing football, obviously, as it is what works under the circumstances, but apparently (again according to the book mentioned above) forcing a turnover in your opponents final third is 7 times more likely to lead to a goal than forcing a turnover in your own third. If anyone wants to question the source by all means take it up with Jonathan Wilson, I'm just passing on what was presented in the book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted July 31, 2023 Share Posted July 31, 2023 (edited) On 30/07/2023 at 17:46, Pinebro said: I don't want to hear any non sense and moaning about our high line. You are going to concede goals no matter how you play. Emery intend to dominate games and going for it, and to do that you need to be prepared to take a few risks. The pros far outweighs the cons. It's not even close. I don't want to hear any nonsense, if we lose games through it, or get knocked out of cups....its just a meaningful warning/danger...thats all. Edited July 31, 2023 by TRO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HKP90 Posted July 31, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted July 31, 2023 On 30/07/2023 at 17:46, Pinebro said: I don't want to hear any non sense and moaning about our high line. You are going to concede goals no matter how you play. Emery intend to dominate games and going for it, and to do that you need to be prepared to take a few risks. The pros far outweighs the cons. It's not even close. At the end of the day a high line = more conceded, and more scored. I feel I need to point out, obvious as it is, that no matter what the former is, if the latter is higher, then....yay! This is gonna be one hell of an entertaining season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomC Posted July 31, 2023 Share Posted July 31, 2023 7 minutes ago, HKP90 said: As I understand from reading 'Inverting the Pyramid' the effectiveness of pressing was backed up by a number of studies going back to the days of Viktor Maslov and Dynamo Kiev (Kyiv?). There is no definitive way of playing football, obviously, as it is what works under the circumstances, but apparently (again according to the book mentioned above) forcing a turnover in your opponents final third is 7 times more likely to lead to a goal than forcing a turnover in your own third. If anyone wants to question the source by all means take it up with Jonathan Wilson, I'm just passing on what was presented in the book. Great book! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomC Posted July 31, 2023 Share Posted July 31, 2023 1 hour ago, DJBOB said: It will cost us goals - no doubt about it. Watch Unai's team at Villareal and it was the same...[snip]...These are the risks you take as a top team. In exchange, we can pin opponents back, press them high in their own half to cause big turnovers, and let's us remain aggressive out of possession. We have to accept this as a fanbase...[snip] And don't worry - Unai will drop into his 622 or 532 when needed if we need to. Exactly. In a league season, with 38 matches, the odds will win over time. Maybe we get caught out a couple times and drop points because of it, but we will score more in other matches and gain points. If, over the season, our tactics convert two draws into losses, that's two dropped points, but if, over the same season, they make three draws into wins, that's plus six points. You're 4 points ahead. The tactics are a calculated gamble. In cup competitions, the odds don't have time to win out. One bad match and you're done. I will be curious to see if Unai, with all his experience, plays the high line a little more conservatively in knockout rounds...or, as Bob puts it, he's more likely to pull out the 6-2-2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJBOB Posted July 31, 2023 Share Posted July 31, 2023 1 hour ago, CVByrne said: What does this even mean though. Defending deep will also cost us goals on conceding space between the lines or conceding space to opposition easily. It's just where we leave the space that's the question. Do we give them space between our block between goal keeper and back line or do we give them space between their goal and our forward line or space between our lines. By choosing to engage them closer to their goal we can turn over balls in dangerous areas close to their goal. Just that the high line ill-timed can cause a high percentage chance and that's something we have to live with. The high line will win us more games than it will lose us. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJBOB Posted July 31, 2023 Share Posted July 31, 2023 16 minutes ago, TomC said: Exactly. In a league season, with 38 matches, the odds will win over time. Maybe we get caught out a couple times and drop points because of it, but we will score more in other matches and gain points. If, over the season, our tactics convert two draws into losses, that's two dropped points, but if, over the same season, they make three draws into wins, that's plus six points. You're 4 points ahead. The tactics are a calculated gamble. In cup competitions, the odds don't have time to win out. One bad match and you're done. I will be curious to see if Unai, with all his experience, plays the high line a little more conservatively in knockout rounds...or, as Bob puts it, he's more likely to pull out the 6-2-2. I think it will be completely dependent on the opponent. From his Villareal days, Unai's line wasn't nearly as aggressively high because of the quality of teams he was facing. Equally, the line was not nearly as high when VIllareal were often winning. Drawing from his short Villa history, it was opponent dependent. Take the Spurs away and home fixtures. Spurs away, in a very deep 6-2-2 or 5-3-2 a lot of the time and soaked up their pressure. We still compressed them and the line almost always remained out of the box but it was not at the halfway line. Olsen was in goal for this game and he had hardly any work to do. The Spurs home fixture is the one the pundits mentioned where teams will 'catch' on to the high line. Think we were almost in the double digits with successful traps but Son did still get through a few times. Once we took the lead vs Chelsea (A) - our line was not very high which made sense since, at the time, Chelsea couldn't have scored in the box no matter what the chance. Conversely, Brighton (H) we deployed a very high line/high press scheme to start the game and settled into a mid-block once Brighton gained more possession. So I'm not too worried about Unai adjusting - just trying to put into context that the high line is something we will see often to control games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lexicon Posted July 31, 2023 Share Posted July 31, 2023 38 minutes ago, HKP90 said: As I understand from reading 'Inverting the Pyramid' the effectiveness of pressing was backed up by a number of studies going back to the days of Viktor Maslov and Dynamo Kiev (Kyiv?). There is no definitive way of playing football, obviously, as it is what works under the circumstances, but apparently (again according to the book mentioned above) forcing a turnover in your opponents final third is 7 times more likely to lead to a goal than forcing a turnover in your own third. If anyone wants to question the source by all means take it up with Jonathan Wilson, I'm just passing on what was presented in the book. Kyiv, yes. Kiev is the transliteration from Russian, so as you can imagine, is not the preferred spelling, to put it mildly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejs1111 Posted July 31, 2023 Share Posted July 31, 2023 3 hours ago, Rightdm00 said: You nailed it. Without the press the highline is pretty much an invitation for balls over the top. Not to mention no athlete can maintain a press at the temps/humidity these games have been played in. exactly this. During the preseason the press has been much less intense- especially in the US with the heat index. It was very noticeable when I was watching at DC. Brentford were not being clamped down and allowed time on the ball to actually see and play those balls over the top. In the Premier League I fully expect Villa to be in their faces more and those passes 'over the top' will be alot more of a hoof and hope ball. I'm not worried about being beat over the top at all. I actually think this was done by UE intentionally- weak front press to force our back line to be exposed to more balls over the top and through in preseason matches. This would force Villa back line to work on stepping up, communicate, etc in real time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rightdm00 Posted July 31, 2023 Share Posted July 31, 2023 4 minutes ago, ejs1111 said: exactly this. During the preseason the press has been much less intense- especially in the US with the heat index. It was very noticeable when I was watching at DC. Brentford were not being clamped down and allowed time on the ball to actually see and play those balls over the top. In the Premier League I fully expect Villa to be in their faces more and those passes 'over the top' will be alot more of a hoof and hope ball. I'm not worried about being beat over the top at all. I actually think this was done by UE intentionally- weak front press to force our back line to be exposed to more balls over the top and through in preseason matches. This would force Villa back line to work on stepping up, communicate, etc in real time. Been to FedEx numerous times definitely the first time in July though. That stadium is an oven without any cloud cover and those temps. I was honestly impressed with the effort the field players put in. Ty playing the whole match, dude is amazing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted July 31, 2023 Share Posted July 31, 2023 (edited) On 19/07/2023 at 21:21, TomC said: I thought that this was a fair analysis, though I disagree on a couple points. 1. His point about Tielemans having played a lot of games over his career is valid, but we have enough midfielders that he won't have to play every game. 2. He assumes that Torres will knock Mings out of the side. As I mentioned a few posts back, I don't see that happening. I think they will both play. I'm not sure which of Mings and Torres you would play on which side. However, we had the same problem with Diego and Mings in the one match they played together last year since they're both left-footed and accustomed to playing LCB. Re-watching The Villa-Everton highlights just now (the full match isn't avilable anymore), it looks like Mings played LCB. Different manager now, and Mings-Torres is a different set of players, but something to keep in mind. The point about Tielemans playing a lot of games, whilst its a valid one, it might also be worth pointing out, at a similar age, and a comparable amount of seasons, the following players had also completed comparable numbers....not as many but not far off. Gareth Barry Ryan Giggs James Milner Frank Lampard Gary Speed They all went on to play twice as many games and around half way through their careers.....So its not inconceivable that Youri can do the same. However, I think its prudent to be respectful, to how many games he has played and manage him accordingly......but my point is, there is still plenty of life in the old dog, yet. Edited July 31, 2023 by TRO 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thunderball Posted July 31, 2023 Share Posted July 31, 2023 You might enjoy this thread: 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted July 31, 2023 Share Posted July 31, 2023 52 minutes ago, HKP90 said: At the end of the day a high line = more conceded, and more scored. I feel I need to point out, obvious as it is, that no matter what the former is, if the latter is higher, then....yay! This is gonna be one hell of an entertaining season. If it works that way its fine, its when it don't, there will be concern. The back end of last season suggests that we found a way to limit the exposure to this and the goals against column, after the wobble ..Leicester, Arsenal and Man city where we were breached 11 times in 3 games....we regained our miserly approach in the next 15 games. I think, (as much as I like attacking football), clean sheets and miserly conceding, breeds confidence and allows us to build the attacking side of our game.....concede too many, and the attacking side ,can be easily affected. Its pre season, nothing to be alarmed about, but useful to be mindful of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CVByrne Posted July 31, 2023 Share Posted July 31, 2023 1 hour ago, HKP90 said: As I understand from reading 'Inverting the Pyramid' the effectiveness of pressing was backed up by a number of studies going back to the days of Viktor Maslov and Dynamo Kiev (Kyiv?). There is no definitive way of playing football, obviously, as it is what works under the circumstances, but apparently (again according to the book mentioned above) forcing a turnover in your opponents final third is 7 times more likely to lead to a goal than forcing a turnover in your own third. If anyone wants to question the source by all means take it up with Jonathan Wilson, I'm just passing on what was presented in the book. I know that. It wasn't my question that I quoted. It was "we will cost us goals". What that really translates to is "It will cost us goals that we as fans will directly attribute to the high defensive line and oppositions effectively targeting the space in behind" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted July 31, 2023 Share Posted July 31, 2023 23 hours ago, TomC said: After three games in the USA, I'd say these players are almost certain (barring injury) to start against Newcastle: Martinez, Mings, Konsa, Doug, McGinn, Watkins, Diaby. I see three different possibilities for the backline: Digne-Mings-Konsa-Cash, Digne-Pau-Mings-Konsa, Pau-Mings-Konsa-Cash. Essentially Digne, Cash, and Pau are competing for two places. I'd go Digne-Mings-Konsa-Cash and then maybe bring on Pau for Digne later to get him some PL experience. Hard to believe that Kamara is not a sure starter but I think Tielemans has outplayed him. Tielemans could start in his place. That leaves one midfield position. I don't think that Unai is going to start JPB in the first PL match of the season. It won't be Coutinho or Dendoncker, and can't be JJ. So is it Bailey or Buendia? I'd go with Buendia. Kamara will be starting above Tielemans, they arent even playing for the same position Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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