Team shape, tactics and personnel

[villan501]

The season we stayed up with a draw at west spam we had a midfield of 

 

Hourihane     Luiz       mcginn

 

Ffs the remaining 2 should not be playing if we want to move forward.

 

Aston Villa is cursed I'm sure of it, Gerrard incompetent and players clearly not good enough.

 

Let's regroup bin mcginn and Luiz off or at least  bench them and get 2 midfielders in. Of Luiz and mcginn play majority of games were screwed.

Edited August 10, 2022 by villan501

[villan501]

I'll call it were utter garbage, we have have so many quality players a squad on paper of a tip 7 side far better than leciester, wolves, Palace Newcastle Brentford, Brighton etc.

 

How on earth can we play so badly this is on the managers ala Smith and now Gerrard.

 

Let's get someone that knows what to do in ASAP.

[villan501]

Gerrard need to realise mcginn and Luiz were in the midfield 3 years ago against West ham and get the. Out the side they wernt good enough then and they aren't now.

So get a set of conkers and drop your skipper go on Steve I dare you leave those pieces of garbage footballers out of our side and sign 2 actual footballers.

The midfield needs to be kamara and 2x new players.

[sir_gary_cahill]

6 hours ago, villan501 said:

I'll call it were utter garbage, we have have so many quality players a squad on paper of a tip 7 side far better than leciester, wolves, Palace Newcastle Brentford, Brighton etc.

 

How on earth can we play so badly this is on the managers ala Smith and now Gerrard.

 

Let's get someone that knows what to do in ASAP.

I think we are quite far from the top 7, we have strengthened the squad considerably but so have all of the other teams. Chopping and changing manager won’t help anyone, for me, Gerrard deserves a chance, a full season with his own squad of players, he hasn’t had that yet

[TRO]

This team has a soft under belly......and has done for some time now.

This needs sorting out, and along the way of doing that, some players are going to be unhappy....SG has to be allowed to MANAGE

We have presided over this soft under belly with many of the personnel we have now......He has to change it.

Tactics will only serve us better, when the personnel is better....we are still persevering with Luiz and McGinn, when past performances have raised doubts.....they are the common denominator of our soft underbelly.

[sne]

So all we need for Gerrard to be able to get a tune out of the squad is to sign another 2 players for the starting 11 along with Carlos, Digne, Chambers (if Mings is no longer deemed good enough), Kamara and Coutinho?

Sure we don't need a new striker as well to get it to a even 8 new players out 10 outfield players?

Still leaves us with Cash and Ramsey playing and they aren't exactly giants, might need to replace them too while we are at it.

[CVByrne]

31 minutes ago, TRO said:

This team has a soft under belly......and has done for some time now.

This needs sorting out, and along the way of doing that, some players are going to be unhappy....SG has to be allowed to MANAGE

We have presided over this soft under belly with many of the personnel we have now......He has to change it.

Tactics will only serve us better, when the personnel is better....we are still persevering with Luiz and McGinn, when past performances have raised doubts.....they are the common denominator of our soft underbelly.

It's because we lack leaders and experienced players. We need a 29/30yo Midfielder who has Premier League experience and Champions League. Someone who can drive the team and calm heads on the pitch.

We also need Mings in defence and he's the only leader we've got there as Carlos can't even speak English yet.

We also need to accept Ramsey and McGinn are attacking 8s. We need another 6/8 hybrid player who is elite passer and can help construct attacks from possession 

[Zatman]

9 minutes ago, sne said:

So all we need for Gerrard to be able to get a tune out of the squad is to sign another 2 players for the starting 11 along with Carlos, Digne, Chambers (if Mings is no longer deemed good enough), Kamara and Coutinho?

Sure we don't need a new striker as well to get it to a even 8 new players out 10 outfield players?

Still leaves us with Cash and Ramsey playing and they aren't exactly giants, might need to replace them too while we are at it.

We just missed out on 6 foot 9 Lorenzo Lucca who signed for Ajax

[bose]

36 minutes ago, TRO said:

This team has a soft under belly......and has done for some time now.

This needs sorting out, and along the way of doing that, some players are going to be unhappy....SG has to be allowed to MANAGE

We have presided over this soft under belly with many of the personnel we have now......He has to change it.

Tactics will only serve us better, when the personnel is better....we are still persevering with Luiz and McGinn, when past performances have raised doubts.....they are the common denominator of our soft underbelly.

Absolutely no evidence in his 9 months here that he's the one to sort out are weak mentality and softness. In fact we look to be going in the other direction, sadly.

[sne]

Looking at this we might as well not even bother showing up against Everton because they have the tallest squad in the PL. A full 2cm taller than us on average.

Quote

The average height in the Premier League is 5′ 11.9″ (182.6cm). The tallest team is Everton FC with an average height of 6′ 0.7″ (184.7cm) and the shortest team is Manchester City with an average height of 5′ 11.2″ (180.8cm).

Team	Average Player Height
1. Everton FC	6′ 0.7″ (184.7cm)
2. Manchester United	6′ 0.5″ (184.2cm)
3. Chelsea FC	6′ 0.44″ (184cm)
4. Tottenham Hotspur FC	6′ 0.2″ (183.4cm)
5. Wolverhampton Wanderers FC	6′ 0.2″ (183.4cm)
6. Nottingham Forest FC	6′ 0.1″ (183.1cm)
7. Brentford FC	6′ 0″ (183cm)
8. Crystal Palace FC	6′ 0″ (182.9cm)
9. West Ham United FC	6′ 0″ (182.8cm)
10. Brighton & Hove Albion FC	5′ 11.9″ (182.7cm)
11. Newcastle United FC	5′ 11.9″ (182.5cm)
12. Aston Villa FC	5′ 11.8″ (182.4cm)
13. Liverpool FC	5′ 11.7″ (182.1cm)
14. Arsenal FC	5′ 11.6″ (181.9cm)
15. AFC Bournemouth	5′ 11.6″ (181.9cm)
16. Leicester City FC	5′ 11.6″ (181.8cm)
17. Leeds United	5′ 11.5″ (181.7cm)
18. Fulham FC	5′ 11.5″ (181.5cm)
19. Southampton FC	5′ 11.2″ (180.9cm)
20. Manchester City	5′ 11.2″ (180.8cm)

https://soccerprime.com/premier-league-average-player-height-all-teams/

You can't counter that, it's like Obi-Wan and Anakin, they got the high ground.

[TRO]

22 hours ago, allani said:

Thanks for posting this.  It is a very interesting read.  I think it highlights a couple of things pretty well - (1) we really are struggling both going forwards and backwards because we don't have another midfielder alongside Kamara, (2) that due to the problems caused by not having that extra solidity in midfield we are resorting to high risk / low reward balls and (3) that our holding midfielder will get completely over-run when we don't have the ball (it is interesting that in one of the photos - McGinn and JJ have dropped back but that neither of them are anywhere near an opposition player whilst our 4 defenders are left having to mark 5 players). 

It clearly demonstrates how our midfield is massively unbalanced and a new midfielder is absolutely necessary (or as an absolute minimum that Luiz needs to start instead of either JJ or McGinn - if people really think he is good enough defensively and/or that he will be able to unpick the opposition).  And I think it explains how that lack of balance is impacting us. 

The question is whether our play is disrupted because of the lack of this additional defender or whether Gerrard really sees us playing with two attack minded CMs as the way forward.  If the latter them the article clearly points out a number of the tactical / set-up problems that highlight that Gerrard is not the answer from a managerial / coaching perspective.  I still hope that he can come good but the appointment of McGinn as captain has hugely impacted on my confidence in the manager and I am worried that he's not seeing these issues, believing that the players will ultimately work.  If that is the case then his days are numbered.

On the flip side, I think it also explains how many of our current problems could be resolved with a new signing.  Assuming that the rest of the players then use the space that this player would create to help build pressure and find the right type of space in the final third.  If the "toss the ball into the box" is a defined tactic rather than just players running out of ideas / not having options in front of the attacking players - then a new midfielder is unlikely to help in the short term.  But I do think that it shows that a relatively small change in the way we set-up the team could have a dramatic impact on our effectiveness across the pitch.

I maintain my view that another midfield signing really could make a huge difference.  The question remains whether it is the only thing required.  That is starting to look doubtful.  However, it gives me grounds for optimism that if we do sack Gerrard then a new manager could realise a significant improvement with minimal changes to personnel or "approach".

Of course we are all guilty of reading into things what we want to believe - so I'm interested to see whether others have a very different perspective after reading the article.

These are some of my issues FWIW.....and some are inherent, before Gerrard....and some are since he arrived.

• The midfield imbalance is still there
• The full backs are drifting too far upfield and exposing us.
• The team is too small in stature, to deal effectively with hign balls, another feature of imbalance..... we cannot just rely on the centre backs for height.
• The mental attitude is of Lethargy.....it has a soft under belly too, which has been around for some time ( I thought it would be the prime thing he would fix, not so)...mentally and physically questionable.
• Unless its a centre back or Goal Keeper we persist in signing sub 6ft players......it contributes to imbalance....quite a seperate issue from ability, which is a must.
• We have only 2 possible outfield leaders in McGinn and Mings and they are questionable.....Thats worrying.
• We are too easy to play against....(Still).....it has been overlooked for too long now.
• We are puny at set pieces.....high balls are simply beyond, most of our players reach.....its quite sad really.
• The 2 full backs are puny at high balls directed at the far post......it leaves us vulnerable.
• Since his initial burst on to the scene....Nov 2021 to Jan 2022....He seems to have lost his way....a clear distinction exists in the perfomance and results, We have gone backwards since 1 jan 2022.....worrying.

I do understand in any Management role, you sometimes have to go backwards, before you can go forwards, but I think he has a real challenge on now to convince folk he is the right man......The hierarchy, who work more closely with him than we do, and will know if he has some issues with personnel, and will know what stance to take.

but he does need results to quieten the Natives.....we are a restless bunch right now, and rightfully so......but the club need to address some of these issues along with the Manager.

I am absolutely not dismissing the coaching argument.....but I just think there is a lot more to all this, than just coaching.

 

Edited August 11, 2022 by TRO

[CVByrne]

I suppose for me it's rather simple. Gerrard has his clear style he wants us to play. Attacking fullbacks and a Midfield 3 that covers for them.

It has so far failed to produce any coherent attack as nobody is in the box to finish off chances other than the Striker. When that's Ings he's too isolated to be effective and Watkins is not a good enough finisher to be as effective in the role without goal contributions from the inside forwards.

This is because Coutinho and Buendia want to create chances not be there to finish chances. They want to get on the ball and play the pass into the forward to score. Our full backs are providing the width and firing in aimless crosses or useful cutbacks from the line.

Our Midfield 8s don't know when to join the attack or when to cover the full back. This is at its worst when JJ and McGinn are playing because they're attacking players who want to get into the box. We really need only one like that, one shuffler and one CDM. Midfield balance is wrong. 

So in summary, we have full backs and inside forwards looking to create and not trying to get in there to score. We've 8s who don't know if they join attack or defend. We've fullbacks crossing too much rather than building an attack. We lack a goal scorer up front with a bit of size.

The only solution I can see with the players we have is play Watkins and Ings together up front which provides the better goal threat. We'll have 3 players creating chances for 2 to finish rather than 4 creating for 1 to finish. Play Luiz and Kamara and one of McGinn/JJ. This allows a dedicated 8 to join the attack late as the other Midfielders cover 

 

[CVByrne]

Further to the above. I think if we had started Luiz and Watkins for JJ and Ings on Saturday our attack would have been more effective. Bailey could be the inside forward to contribute a goal threat. Coutinho drifting centrally to create leaving space for Digne on the left to create from. Cash needs to get an understanding to underlap Bailey of he is staying wide. 

[Tom13]

In terms of midfield and attack, I'd like us to try one of the following:

Kamara
Luiz - Sanson

Bailey - Watkins - Buendia

 

Kamara - Luiz

Bailey - Buendia - Coutinho
Ings

 

Ramsey rotating in with Sanson/Coutinho.

[daft]

5 hours ago, sne said:

Looking at this we might as well not even bother showing up against Everton because they have the tallest squad in the PL. A full 2cm taller than us on average.

https://soccerprime.com/premier-league-average-player-height-all-teams/

You can't counter that, it's like Obi-Wan and Anakin, they got the high ground.

 

Well, according to that table we are taller than Bournemouth. 

[sne]

6 minutes ago, daft said:

 

Well, according to that table we are taller than Bournemouth. 

Surely that can't be right? They won. 

[Sam-AVFC]

1 minute ago, sne said:

Surely that can't be right? They won. 

It didn't factor in passion or getting stuck in.

[TRO]

6 hours ago, bose said:

Absolutely no evidence in his 9 months here that he's the one to sort out are weak mentality and softness. In fact we look to be going in the other direction, sadly.

Right now, its hard to see past your comments.....but up until I Jan 2022, folk would have laughed at that.

Something has happened, since the last Window.

[villan501]

6 hours ago, CVByrne said:

I suppose for me it's rather simple. Gerrard has his clear style he wants us to play. Attacking fullbacks and a Midfield 3 that covers for them.

It has so far failed to produce any coherent attack as nobody is in the box to finish off chances other than the Striker. When that's Ings he's too isolated to be effective and Watkins is not a good enough finisher to be as effective in the role without goal contributions from the inside forwards.

This is because Coutinho and Buendia want to create chances not be there to finish chances. They want to get on the ball and play the pass into the forward to score. Our full backs are providing the width and firing in aimless crosses or useful cutbacks from the line.

Our Midfield 8s don't know when to join the attack or when to cover the full back. This is at its worst when JJ and McGinn are playing because they're attacking players who want to get into the box. We really need only one like that, one shuffler and one CDM. Midfield balance is wrong. 

So in summary, we have full backs and inside forwards looking to create and not trying to get in there to score. We've 8s who don't know if they join attack or defend. We've fullbacks crossing too much rather than building an attack. We lack a goal scorer up front with a bit of size.

The only solution I can see with the players we have is play Watkins and Ings together up front which provides the better goal threat. We'll have 3 players creating chances for 2 to finish rather than 4 creating for 1 to finish. Play Luiz and Kamara and one of McGinn/JJ. This allows a dedicated 8 to join the attack late as the other Midfielders cover 

 

With mgcinn and Luiz as part of the midfield 3 we have zero chance to advance.

[Tom13]

Just now, villan501 said:

With mgcinn and Luiz as part of the midfield 3 we have zero chance to advance.

Not true. McGinn shouldn't be present in there, Luiz should be a regular in there. His strength is keeping the ball, and he can do that in tight spaces.