Team shape, tactics and personnel

[Delphouneso]

4 hours ago, romavillan said:

Good analysis that too, looks like Bruce levels of preparation to me! The obvious lack of any sort of compactness on or off the ball, *might* be the players not understanding what he's tryingt o get them to do. Maybe he's instructed the two 8s to get forward when we attack, and the back line should push up so there's no enormous hole in the middle of the park and maybe he's said when we build from the back that kamara should make it a back 3 to free the fullbacks while the two 8s hold their position. You could see how if kamara and the fullbacks think it's time to do the latter but McGinn and Ramsey have decided it's time to attack they're all doing stuff they've been told but they've decided two different things about what's going on.

That's down to coaching though too, and if you see that from the bench surely you give some instructions so they start getting it right... 

It's not the first time this has happened though. When he first took over he was having the two 8s cover the space left by the attacking FBs, which also left the middle of the pitch largely empty. Maybe a symptom of Gerrard wanting his players to play in his own image and expecting a little too much from them.

[vazquez]

Always easy to tell that manager's selections suck (especially afterwards), but its also good to consider how would you change it. If I was our manager this would be the team against Everton, and we would go with high pressing style.

Martinez

Cash    Calum   Mings     Ludwig

             Kamara             Luiz

KKH              Buendia               Bailey

                      Watkins

I still expect that gerrard will start with this however

Martinez

  Cash     Calum     Carlos        Digne

       McGinn     Kamara      Ramsey

                         Coutinho

                  Ings             Watkins

 

[TRO]

19 hours ago, allani said:

I just can't see how you can get a combination of McGinn, Luiz, JJ and Sanson controlling the midfield - in either attacking or defensive mode (we've tried it for long enough without success).  I hoped that when Smith failed to address this, that one of the country's best modern midfielders would spot it and resolve the problem.  My worry is that (a) he hasn't and (b) he seems to believe that McGinn is the answer.  I would hope that a new coach / manager would spot the problem and find a way of dealing with it but ultimately I think that needs new players and that a better coach will still struggle to find a way to make our current midfield effective.

This is all incredibly frustrating because I think that we are close, very close in most other areas of the pitch and I do think that Gerrard has helped us to recruit pretty well in most of those areas.  However, his decision to make McGinn his captain and his failure (so far) to bring in a second midfield signing have me growing increasingly concerned.

He had a good start, and something from Jan 1 2022, has changed.I am not professing to know the answer, just offering thoughts like you.

We had a lightweight squad in my opinion and despite bringing in 2 class footballers in Digne and Coutinho...we have made that aspect alone, worse.....not worse footballers, they are clearly better, worse physically.

Its always the straw that breaks the camels back......most situations can limp along, but make it worse and the wheels come off.

We have now signed, Carlos and Kamara, in terms of first teamers , who I am happy with, so far......but this squad needs more muscle, to give us options against teams who are going to rely on it like West Ham and Newcastle, not to mention Brentford.....Brentford despite theier talent, was a lightweight team under Dean......Thomas Frank has changed them in to a team for all eventualities.

Listen to the latest rendition from "Pete the Canadian ( Holy Trinity Show)on the Bournemouth debacle.....it has merit IMO.

Contrary to some folks interpretations, I am in no mood to give SG a free pass......I am just sceptical of the reasons, some folk put forward.....I think maybe he has some issues that have been manifesting themselves from earlier and only now is he dealing with them.

However, I am staggered at the issues, I still see under SG, in some cases its no different from Dean Smiths woes......despite the changes in style, some issues are still the same.

I am beginning to wonder, if their are any  issues  about who comes in, from ( JL,CP & SG) because so far I have only been partially impressed.....I don't want to sound ungrateful, but most of the players have been cover, not first teamers, Which I know is important for stability, but not difference or European place bound......The London clubs, like Spurs, West Ham, Arsenal are signing them for fun.....Man City seem to have done more business than us and they are champions.

I was happy with the initial early sprint....but since, we have just sat on our hands......Am I right to suspect, something is not quite right, other than the topics we know like Bournemouth, Carney and Mings.

by the time, we realise, we have a problem with the first 11......just a bunch of scraggy chickens will be hanging up for sale.

Edited August 10, 2022 by TRO

[allani]

6 hours ago, sne said:

This one is pretty grim

Long read in link.

https://totalfootballanalysis.com/match-analysis/premier-league-202223-bournemouth-vs-aston-villa-tactical-analysis

Thanks for posting this.  It is a very interesting read.  I think it highlights a couple of things pretty well - (1) we really are struggling both going forwards and backwards because we don't have another midfielder alongside Kamara, (2) that due to the problems caused by not having that extra solidity in midfield we are resorting to high risk / low reward balls and (3) that our holding midfielder will get completely over-run when we don't have the ball (it is interesting that in one of the photos - McGinn and JJ have dropped back but that neither of them are anywhere near an opposition player whilst our 4 defenders are left having to mark 5 players). 

It clearly demonstrates how our midfield is massively unbalanced and a new midfielder is absolutely necessary (or as an absolute minimum that Luiz needs to start instead of either JJ or McGinn - if people really think he is good enough defensively and/or that he will be able to unpick the opposition).  And I think it explains how that lack of balance is impacting us. 

The question is whether our play is disrupted because of the lack of this additional defender or whether Gerrard really sees us playing with two attack minded CMs as the way forward.  If the latter them the article clearly points out a number of the tactical / set-up problems that highlight that Gerrard is not the answer from a managerial / coaching perspective.  I still hope that he can come good but the appointment of McGinn as captain has hugely impacted on my confidence in the manager and I am worried that he's not seeing these issues, believing that the players will ultimately work.  If that is the case then his days are numbered.

On the flip side, I think it also explains how many of our current problems could be resolved with a new signing.  Assuming that the rest of the players then use the space that this player would create to help build pressure and find the right type of space in the final third.  If the "toss the ball into the box" is a defined tactic rather than just players running out of ideas / not having options in front of the attacking players - then a new midfielder is unlikely to help in the short term.  But I do think that it shows that a relatively small change in the way we set-up the team could have a dramatic impact on our effectiveness across the pitch.

I maintain my view that another midfield signing really could make a huge difference.  The question remains whether it is the only thing required.  That is starting to look doubtful.  However, it gives me grounds for optimism that if we do sack Gerrard then a new manager could realise a significant improvement with minimal changes to personnel or "approach".

Of course we are all guilty of reading into things what we want to believe - so I'm interested to see whether others have a very different perspective after reading the article.

[allani]

12 minutes ago, TRO said:

He had a good start, and something from Jan 1 2022, has changed.I am not prfessing to know the answer, just offering thoughts like you.

We had a lightweight squad in my opinion and despite bringing in 2 class footballers in Digne and Coutinho...we have made that aspect alone, worse.....not worse footballers, they are clearly better, worse physically.

Its always the straw the breaks the camels back......most situations can limp along, but make it worse and the wheels come off.

We have now signed, Carlos and Kamara, in terms of first teamers , who I am happy with, so far......but this squad needs more muscle, to give us options against teams who are going to rely on it like West Ham and Newcastle, not to mention Brentford.....Brentfors despite theier talent, was a lightweight team under Dean......Thomas Frank has changed them in a team for all eventualities.

Listen to the latest rendition from "Pete the Canadian ( Holy Trinity Show)on the Bournemouth debacle.....it has merit IMO.

Contrary to some folks interpretations, I am in no mood to give SG a free pass......I am just sceptical of the reasons, some folk put forward.....I think maybe he has some issues that have been manifesting themselves from earlier and only now is he dealing with them.

However, I am staggered at the issues, I still see under SG, in some cases its no different from Dean Smiths woes......despite the changes in style, some issues are still the same.

I am beginning to wonder, if their are any  issues  about who comes in, from ( JL,CP & SG) because so far I have only been partially impressed.....I don't want to sound ungrateful, but most of the players have been cover, not first teamers, Which I know is important for stability, but not difference or European place bound......The London clubs, like Spurs, West Ham, Arsenal are signing them for fun.....Man City seem to have done more business than us and they are champions.

I was happy with the initial early sprint....but since, we have just sat on our hands......Am I right to suspect, something is not quite right, other than the topics we know like Bournemouth, Carney and Mings.

by the time, we realise, we have a problem with the first 11......just a bunch of scraggy chickens will be hanging up for sale.

I've just posted my thoughts on the article that @sne published earlier.  I think that it shows how many of our problems might be resolved by having another midfielder playing slightly deeper alongside Kamara - rather than two who want to join the attack.  I read it thinking that IF we solve that issue then a lot of the way we are set up then makes sense.  However, it also highlighted that if other people can spot the issues and clearly demonstrate where things are falling down - then why can't Gerrard and the coaches.  Whilst it made me feel more confident that we are pretty close to being a good team - it has probably reduced my confidence in our current manager being the person to realise that improvement.

[TRO]

2 hours ago, nick76 said:

So my season ticket came in the post yesterday, I guess it’s not worth bothering to go on Saturday against Everton given the likes of Tarkowski and Coady to name a few are going to bully us and win the game for them.  

Despite us having a more talented team than them and them losing Richarlison in the summer and DCL being injured, they are physically bigger so we don’t have a good chance despite us being a more talented team.

Thanks, I’ll take my dog for a walk in Sutton Park given the lovely weather instead of the game then.

I think you think, talent will unlock everydoor.....its important sure, but if only thats all it is.

Nick study the top teams in this country, they have a physical side to their game......I am not saying, its ALL about that, but its a huge element we have to get right.....They go after you and impose themselves, off the ball they are beavers and organisation freaks.

I think your reservations on Saturday, have merit despite, being tongue in cheek....especially, if we turn up with the same attitude as last week end.....Coady for sure will be well aware of our shortfalls and do his best to exploit us, as he did so well for Wolves in that Debacle.....We seem to have a habit of capitulating, after being 2 goals up.....thats not a talent issue, its a mentality, desire, will to winn....breakdown and sadly its been with us for too long under at least 2 managers.

Games are never won on paper, and we would do well to remind ourselves of that....We seem to take some of the basic stuff like desire for granted, but there is a graveyard full of managers, who failed to inject it......Man U with all their drippings of individual talent, cannot repeat the drive and the will to win, Fergie instilled in them....They simply cannot find it, like we are struggling to do too......Money won't solve this......strong management might, and in some cases, you have to be cruel to be kind.....This team need sorting out more than coaching, and that can be difficult to do as the mighty Man U have experienced, too.

Mind the dog mess, in sutton park, we need to be careful on here too.

Edited August 10, 2022 by TRO

[TRO]

56 minutes ago, Pissflaps said:

Remember when we signed all the captain's in the first championship window? Chester Jedinak Elphick etc. 

Maybe Martinez is the answer ?

You could be right.....but I like them further up the pitch, where their influence is needed.

[nick76]

11 minutes ago, TRO said:

I think you think, talent will unlock everydoor.....its important sure, but if only thats all it is.

Nick study the top teams in this country, they have a physical side to their game......I am not saying, its ALL about that, but its a huge element we have to get right.....They go after you and impose themselves, off the ball they are beavers and organisation freaks.

I think your reservations on Saturday, have merit despite, being tongue in cheek....especially, if we turn up with the same attitude as last week end.....Coady for sure will be well aware of our shortfalls and do his best to exploit us, as he did so well for Wolves in that Debacle.....We seem to have a habit of capitulating, after being 2 goals up.....thats not a talent issue, its a mentality, desire, will to winn....breakdown and sadly its been with us for too long under at least 2 managers.

Games are never won on paper, and we would do well to remind ourselves of that....We seem to taken some of the basic stuff like desire for granted, but there is a graveyard full of managers, who failed to inject it......Man U with all their drippings of individual talent, cannot repeat the drive and the will to win, Fergie instilled in them....They simply cannot find it, like we are struggling to do too......Money won't solve this......strong management might, and in some cases, you have to be cruel to be kind.....This team need sorting out more than coaching, and that can be difficult to do as the might Man U have experienced.

Mind the dog mess, we need to be careful on here too.

My issue though with what you are saying repeatedly is seem to be blaming it on the physical and height side, which I have acknowledged a couple of times.  The point you seem to be deflecting from is the coaching side and that while physicality and height is a part of the game, there are other parts to the game that can win you the game and with the talent we have which was considerable compared to Bournemouth we should've imposed those on the game to a better outcome.  Those arent being shown and if it was one or two players I would say the individuals problem but it was the whole team and subs, that is a coaching issue. 

You keep pointing that I am tongue in cheek about the height and physical side and I have a number of times acknowledged that is an issue but you are failing to give Gerrard any of the blame for how poorly coached the team are even when we werent being bullied.  Yes we are going to be bullied and I accept that but we have attributes that Bournemouth cant touch us on with the attacking talent we have yet our attacking talent dont seem to be able to play together or play well individually and that all cant be the player issues, that is coaching.

You have a point that we lack size but you seem to be blaming only that for the defeat and letting Gerrard off scot free for the coaching side.  If this team was coached better, had a game plan, tactics, triangles and cohesion the likelyhood is that we might have beaten Bournemouth last weekend.  Obviously there are days that doesnt happen but we werent at the races, our team in 2022 doesnt look like it is being coached well and now we've had preseason, the first game out of the gate was probably the worst performance of them all. 

I know you have great hope in Gerrard but you let him off so quickly and deflect to other issues, which I agree we have but the coaching for me, is simply one of the biggest issues we have at the moment.  If we are struggling at the basics from being a coached team against Bournemouth then we are going to struggle more against mid table teams and ripped apart by big teams.

[Villastine]

10 minutes ago, TRO said:

You could be right.....but I like them further up the pitch, where their influence is needed.

The influence is needed from the manager 

[TRO]

24 minutes ago, allani said:

I've just posted my thoughts on the article that @sne published earlier.  I think that it shows how many of our problems might be resolved by having another midfielder playing slightly deeper alongside Kamara - rather than two who want to join the attack.  I read it thinking that IF we solve that issue then a lot of the way we are set up then makes sense.  However, it also highlighted that if other people can spot the issues and clearly demonstrate where things are falling down - then why can't Gerrard and the coaches.  Whilst it made me feel more confident that we are pretty close to being a good team - it has probably reduced my confidence in our current manager being the person to realise that improvement.

You know, how much I have supported SG....and still we are only one game in.....but I agree with your comments.

If we signed someone like Ndidi, it would make sense.....Bentancur and Bissouma, was  big misses for me.....I honestly don't think, he is thinking like that, I think he is still favouring a no 8....and maybe we need one of them too.

This midfield consisting of McGinn & Luiz has been at the centre of many of our doubts for seasons....what in terms of dynamism do they offer?

[Steero113]

10 minutes ago, TRO said:

You know, how much I have supported SG....and still we are only one game in.....but I agree with your comments.

If we signed someone like Ndidi, it would make sense.....Bentancur and Bissouma, was  big misses for me.....I honestly don't think, he is thinking like that, I think he is still favouring a no 8....and maybe we need one of them too.

This midfield consisting of McGinn & Luiz has been at the centre of many of our doubts for seasons....what in terms of dynamism do they offer?

Absolutely laughable that people were adamantly against signing Rodrigo Bentancur on here. 

[TRO]

43 minutes ago, nick76 said:

My issue though with what you are saying repeatedly is seem to be blaming it on the physical and height side, which I have acknowledged a couple of times.  The point you seem to be deflecting from is the coaching side and that while physicality and height is a part of the game, there are other parts to the game that can win you the game and with the talent we have which was considerable compared to Bournemouth we should've imposed those on the game to a better outcome.  Those arent being shown and if it was one or two players I would say the individuals problem but it was the whole team and subs, that is a coaching issue. 

You keep pointing that I am tongue in cheek about the height and physical side and I have a number of times acknowledged that is an issue but you are failing to give Gerrard any of the blame for how poorly coached the team are even when we werent being bullied.  Yes we are going to be bullied and I accept that but we have attributes that Bournemouth cant touch us on with the attacking talent we have yet our attacking talent dont seem to be able to play together or play well individually and that all cant be the player issues, that is coaching.

You have a point that we lack size but you seem to be blaming only that for the defeat and letting Gerrard off scot free for the coaching side.  If this team was coached better, had a game plan, tactics, triangles and cohesion the likelyhood is that we might have beaten Bournemouth last weekend.  Obviously there are days that doesnt happen but we werent at the races, our team in 2022 doesnt look like it is being coached well and now we've had preseason, the first game out of the gate was probably the worst performance of them all. 

I know you have great hope in Gerrard but you let him off so quickly and deflect to other issues, which I agree we have but the coaching for me, is simply one of the biggest issues we have at the moment.  If we are struggling at the basics from being a coached team against Bournemouth then we are going to struggle more against mid table teams and ripped apart by big teams.

Nick, I genuinely accept your point, worthy of serious consideration....And I am not suggesting your point, that you too continually offer in your passionate effort to get to the bottom of this crap, like me....is wrong.

and I have to point out, that in no way, am i suggesting you are wrong......I just have an opinion, that some issues are there, that could be affecting the coaching or the interpretation of it......when some things go wrong, players can revert to type, and game plans go out of the window.....when the game is in progress, managers can only watch the panic take over and the messages in the bin.

I am not defending him, as much as you think, but when too many things go wrong at once, managers need to compose themselves and deal with the issue, one by one....That game Saturday, was a Kaleidoscope of Dung.

but no one will convince me ,Inc SG that, that first goal wasn't at the centre of all our woes.......it rocked the very foundations of all what we stand for, and they done us up like a kipper......I can think of many Villa Teams, managed by various managers, who would never have stood for that, but maybe too, they may have had the personnel to deal with an innocuous high ball, twice.....lets be fair with each other, this is far from the first time.

Maybe, I am harping on about Height in the team, because I think it is having a huge effect on undoing us, at crucial times in a game....and it forces us to concede not only a goal, but as important....the initiative.

That second goal was like that, we lost the initiative and if the world opened up for Kiefer Moore, the puny way konsa attempted to close down the crosser was laughable( Even Though he should have been in the middle of the goal, defending it)

I have to have great hope in Gerrard, a lot rides on it.....and to be changing managers so early, smacks of knee jerk reaction and not being able to manage our way our of set backs.....We as a whole Entity, not just the footballside, have to show more resillience than that.

We as a fanbase, want the team to show more resillience, we need to practice what we preach.

We are all smarting Nick, after that nausiating shit show......but we have to stay strong.

Aske the dog nicely, to take a rain check.....and get down on Saturday, and demand a win.....I will be with you.

There is no if's buts or maybe's.....our team need to hear it loud and clear, from our support...........only A WIN, will do.

 

 

Edited August 10, 2022 by TRO

[allani]

17 minutes ago, TRO said:

You know, how much I have supported SG....and still we are only one game in.....but I agree with your comments.

If we signed someone like Ndidi, it would make sense.....Bentancur and Bissouma, was  big misses for me.....I honestly don't think, he is thinking like that, I think he is still favouring a no 8....and maybe we need one of them too.

This midfield consisting of McGinn & Luiz has been at the centre of many of our doubts for seasons....what in terms of dynamism do they offer?

I just hope that Gerrard's idea from the start was that Bentancur / Bissouma were in addition to Kamara.  If that was the plan and we are still trying to get that type of player in before the end of the window then there is still hope.  I think he has spotted other issues and addressed them.

However, at the risk of repeating myself ad infinitum - his decision on the captaincy and the fact that we were so hopelessly exposed by Bournemouth and yet very little changed in the second half have really knocked my confidence / faith in him.

My worry is that if he doesn't work it out then we could find ourselves a way off the European places quite quickly - which will make it that much harder to try and recruit the type of manager that we need.  I think that is why I hope we do sign another midfielder (assuming they are in the mould of the players we are discussing).  At least that way if it turns out that Gerrard is the main issue, then the new manager will inherit a balanced team / squad.  If it turns out that the lack of balance was the issue (accentuated by the fact that Gerrard wasn't dealing with it effectively) then hopefully our form would pick up and get us back to a position where either Gerrard grows into the role or where we finish in a decent enough position to be an attractive option to a replacement at the end of the season. 

[allani]

5 minutes ago, TRO said:

Nick, I genuinely accept your point, worthy of serious consideration....And I am not suggesting your point, that you too continually offer in your passionate effort to get to the bottom of this crap, like me....is wrong.

and I have to point out, that in no way, am i suggesting you are wrong......I just have an opinion, that some issues are there, that could be affecting the coaching or the interpretation of it......when some things go wrong, players can revert to type, and game plans go out of the window.....when the game is in progress, managers can only watch the panic take over and the messages in the bin.

I am not defending him, as much as you think, but when too manay things go wrong at once, managers need to compose themselves and deal with the issue, one by one....That game Saturday, was a Kaleidoscope of Dung.

but no one will convince me ,Inc SG that, that first goal wasn't at the centre of all our woes.......it rocked the very foundations of all what we stand for, and they done us up like a kipper......I can think of many Villa Teams, managed by various managers, who would never have stood for that, but maybe too, they may have had the personnel to deal with an innocuous high ball, twice.....lets be fair with each other, this is far from the first time.

Maybe, I am harping on about Height in the team, because I think it is having a huge effect on undoing us, at crucial times in a game....and it forces us to concede not only a goal, but as important....the initiative.

That second goal was like that, we lost the initiative and if the world opened up for Kiefer Moore, the puny way konsa attempted to close down the crosser was laughable( Even Though he should have been in the middle of the goal, defending it)

I have to have great hope in Gerrard, a lot rides on it.....and to be changing managers so early, smacks of knee jerk reaction and not being able to manage our way our of set backs.....We as a whole Entity, not just the footballside, have to show more resillience than that.

We as a fanbase, want the team to show more resillience, we need to practice what we preach.

We are all smarting Nick, after that nausiating shit show......but we have to stay strong.

Aske the dog nicely, to take a rain check.....and get down on Saturday, and demand a win.....I will be with you.

There is no if's buts or maybe's.....our team need to hear it loud and clear, from our support...........only A WIN, will do.

 

 

My only issue is that whether it is a coaching or a recuitment issue - Gerrard has no excuses after a full pre-season and transfer window if the balance within the team isn't addressed.  To be fair I think he probably knows that too.  If we don't sign another midfielder or we don't find a better balance to address the issues that Bournemouth exposed (and it wasn't the first time - although I maybe gave him the benefit of the doubt last season) then that sits with Gerrard first and foremost.  Hopefully, we do get an extra player in and everything comes together - I am not sure I can cope with being in the same position next summer!!!!

[TRO]

1 minute ago, allani said:

My only issue is that whether it is a coaching or a recuitment issue - Gerrard has no excuses after a full pre-season and transfer window if the balance within the team isn't addressed.  To be fair I think he probably knows that too.  If we don't sign another midfielder or we don't find a better balance to address the issues that Bournemouth exposed (and it wasn't the first time - although I maybe gave him the benefit of the doubt last season) then that sits with Gerrard first and foremost.  Hopefully, we do get an extra player in and everything comes together - I am not sure I can cope with being in the same position next summer!!!!

I agree.

[Tom13]

45 minutes ago, messi11 said:

Bet he does on saturday!

What's wrong with Luiz as an 8? McGinn is the one that's the problem.

[romavillan]

1 hour ago, allani said:

My only issue is that whether it is a coaching or a recuitment issue - Gerrard has no excuses after a full pre-season and transfer window if the balance within the team isn't addressed.  To be fair I think he probably knows that too.  If we don't sign another midfielder or we don't find a better balance to address the issues that Bournemouth exposed (and it wasn't the first time - although I maybe gave him the benefit of the doubt last season) then that sits with Gerrard first and foremost.  Hopefully, we do get an extra player in and everything comes together - I am not sure I can cope with being in the same position next summer!!!!

Can it really be recruitment looking at the tune Potter keeps getting out of the BHA squad?

[messi11]

38 minutes ago, Tom13 said:

What's wrong with Luiz as an 8? McGinn is the one that's the problem.

Luiz isnt a 8, we signed him to be a 6. Why would he be good as a 8? he even admits that himself in his first ever interview that he's a 6, 50 seconds in. 
 

 

[Steero113]

Just now, messi11 said:

Luiz isnt a 8, we signed him to be a 6. Why would he be good as a 8? he even admits that himself in his first ever interview that he's a 6, 50 seconds in. 
 

 

Because he’s good as an 8? 

[messi11]

Just now, Steero113 said:

Because he’s good as an 8? 

In your opinion. He's decent