Don_Simon Posted August 21, 2023 Share Posted August 21, 2023 2 minutes ago, MWARLEY2 said: The arguments for selling him and against selling him can be made with equal strength i think. My take on this is that we need to look at the academy in a different way to how we have in the past. Many of these high quality young players we are producing would have been the backbone of our team in the Championship. BUT we are looking to cement ourselves in the top 6 now under Emery. That takes huge financial resources and truly elite players. We also think that these players are desperate to play for the Villa . No. They are professional . They land on their feet and get into Villas academy and they have a great chance of making it as a professional footballer . Thats the key. Get a career for themselves. At the age of 21 sitting in the reserves and getting maybe 10 sub appreances in a season is seen as stagnating. They need to be playing and developijng or it can all come to a crashing halt and they can tumble down the leagues . So if us selling our academy players gives them the right pathway to a long career and in return we recieve a good fee for a player we will have spent comparitvely little on , i am all for it. By aiming for the top 6 permanently we are aiming to be one of say the top 20 strongest football clubs on the planet. And we will not continue to do that unless we scour the world for the best players, and not just bring though local lads. That increased quality will help the very best of the best youth train with these players which in turn will help them become even better. I don't think any of the "high quality young players" we're rumoured to be selling would be the backbone of our Championship team. None of them would get in promotion team for example. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MWARLEY2 Posted August 21, 2023 Share Posted August 21, 2023 1 minute ago, Don_Simon said: I don't think any of the "high quality young players" we're rumoured to be selling would be the backbone of our Championship team. None of them would get in promotion team for example. No i agree. I suppose i was trying to make the point that they are good players but thats it at the moment. They could perform at a certain level but not maybe at the level we are aiming for nowadays. With experience they could be good enough to get us promoted but not to push on to the next levels Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
useless Posted August 21, 2023 Share Posted August 21, 2023 How does none of them would get in a promotion team make sense, Aaron Ramsey was one of the best players for a team that just missed out on promotion and if it wasn't for his injury there's a good chance they would have been promoted, and now being brought by a newly promoted Premier League team, obviously to play a big role, as they're paying £15m for him whilst allowing us to have a buy-back, which isn't ideal for buying club for obvious reasons, but they rate him so highly that they're willing to do that rather than spend that £15m on another player they could get without buy-back, and Burnley over last year or so have been a pretty good judge of top young players. I don't rate them as highly as Ramsey, but Archer will likely get a move to a team likely to expcted to challenge for automatic promotion, or a newly promoted team, and Philogene looks to be moving to a team expected to challenge for promotion. If we were in Championship all three would be part of our team, in Aaron's case we would evidently be lucky to have him as there would be Premier League interest, as I've said he's the one who I think has the best chance of coming back, most with these buy-backs obviously won't return, but every so often one will, which is the whole point of them, because if Aaron, or whoever, goes away and prove themselves good enough for us, then it's going to save us a lot of money, the club will be hoping that they do well enough to return, could also be very handy if we're restricted by FFP down the line meaning can't spend big, if we can buy these players back for cut price deals. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannedfromHandV Posted August 21, 2023 Share Posted August 21, 2023 Seems a bit of a quick departure from him being in the first team squad for the season, would have to assume this is a club decision and not an Emery one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted August 21, 2023 Moderator Share Posted August 21, 2023 3 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said: Seems a bit of a quick departure from him being in the first team squad for the season, would have to assume this is a club decision and not an Emery one. It's a Philogene-Bidace decision - the young man wants to play. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leeroy Posted August 21, 2023 Share Posted August 21, 2023 41 minutes ago, useless said: How does none of them would get in a promotion team make sense, Aaron Ramsey was one of the best players for a team that just missed out on promotion and if it wasn't for his injury there's a good chance they would have been promoted, and now being brought by a newly promoted Premier League team, obviously to play a big role, as they're paying £15m for him whilst allowing us to have a buy-back, which isn't ideal for buying club for obvious reasons, but they rate him so highly that they're willing to do that rather than spend that £15m on another player they could get without buy-back, and Burnley over last year or so have been a pretty good judge of top young players. I don't rate them as highly as Ramsey, but Archer will likely get a move to a team likely to expcted to challenge for automatic promotion, or a newly promoted team, and Philogene looks to be moving to a team expected to challenge for promotion. If we were in Championship all three would be part of our team, in Aaron's case we would evidently be lucky to have him as there would be Premier League interest, as I've said he's the one who I think has the best chance of coming back, most with these buy-backs obviously won't return, but every so often one will, which is the whole point of them, because if Aaron, or whoever, goes away and prove themselves good enough for us, then it's going to save us a lot of money, the club will be hoping that they do well enough to return, could also be very handy if we're restricted by FFP down the line meaning can't spend big, if we can buy these players back for cut price deals. Probably because we had Grealish, McGinn, El Ghazi and Abraham as our options in the Championship. Even Hourihane who was at that time one of the best midfielders at Championship level. Outside of our defence we had probably one of the strongest Championship teams in memory maybe only bettered by Wolves' Championship winning team the season before and maybe Newcastle's team the season before that. To be honest it's a travesty we finished 5th, we should have been in the top 2 that season if it hadn't been for Bruce messing up before he was sacked and then our awful form when Grealish was injured. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
useless Posted August 21, 2023 Share Posted August 21, 2023 (edited) Again Aaron Ramsey is about to be brought by a Premier League side for £15m, and it's only that cheap because of the buy-back-clause, he's just had a season as one of the better attacking players in the Championship, he had better stats in much less game time than Mason Mount who was in the Championship at the same age, he would easily have got in our promotion team, which wasn't even my point, as he was better in the Championship for Middlesbrough than the likes of Hourihane and El Ghazi were for us when we got promoted, no Premier League teams were ever going to pay big money for them. I think people seriously underate how well Ramsey did and how big his potential is, he's not even in same category as Phiogene and Archer, more Chukwuemeka and Alex Scott level, but as with Philly obviously being sold to get more game time with potential to come back to us as Emery stated in press conference Edited August 21, 2023 by useless 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Villatillidie95 Posted August 21, 2023 Share Posted August 21, 2023 Good luck to philogene - he isn’t villa through and through as he’s from the south and realistically he probably knows he is not at the required standard to hold down a regular place in our team. why would he turn down a decent payrise and chance to be the big fish down? I’ll keep a keen eye on him in championship but I think it’s a good level for him to get regular game time and in his mind he can “properly start” his career at a club as a regular with certainty that he will be there for a few seasons 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leeroy Posted August 21, 2023 Share Posted August 21, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, useless said: Again Aaron Ramsey is about to be brought by a Premier League side for £15m, and it's only that cheap because of the buy-back-clause, he's just had a season as one of the better attacking players in the Championship, he had better stats in much less game time than Mason Mount who was in the Championship at the same age, he would easily have got in our promotion team, which wasn't even my point, as he was better in the Championship for Middlesbrough than the likes of Hourihane and El Ghazi were for us when we got promoted, no Premier League teams were ever going to pay big money for them. I think people seriously underate how well Ramsey did and how big his potential is, he's not even in same category as Phiogene and Archer, more Chukwuemeka and Alex Scott level, but as with Philly obviously being sold to get more game time with potential to come back to us as Emery stated in press conference You said, and I quote, "If we were in the Championship all three would be part of our team". Team, not squad, meaning first 11. I'm saying they wouldn't because when we were in the Championship over four years ago we had better players than at least two of those players. I sort of agree on Aaron Ramsey, his potential is very high like Chukwuemeka's (who we didn't want to sell) and I suspect he could go on to play for England. He would probably get in over Hourihane, but I don't think Philogene gets in over El Ghazi who had already played for Hollamd at senior level and was playing in the top league in France before us and for a stupidly talented Ajax team before that. And Archer while a really promising player with a bright future doesn't get in over Tammy who at 18/19 was banging in over 20 goals for Bristol City at Champ level and who really took a step down to come to us in our promotion season given he was on loan at Swansea in the Prem the season before. And Wolves were rumoured that January to wanting him. Edited August 21, 2023 by Leeroy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villan95 Posted August 21, 2023 Share Posted August 21, 2023 1 minute ago, Leeroy said: You said, and I quote, "If we were in the Championship all three would be part of our team". Team, not squad, meaning first 11. I'm saying they wouldn't because when we were in the Championship over four years ago we had better players than at least two of those players. I sort of agree on Aaron Ramsey, his potential is very high like Chukwuemeka's (who we didn't want to sell) and I suspect he could go on to play for England. He would probably get in over Hourihane, but I don't think Philogene gets in over El Ghazi and Archer who had already played for Hollamd at senior level and was playing in the top league in France before us and for a stupidly talented Ajax team before that. And Archer while a really promising player ith a bright future doesn't get in over Tammy who at 18/19 was banging in over 20 goals for Bristol City at Champ level and who really took a step down to come to us in our promotion season given he was on loan at Swansea in the Prem the season before. And Wolves were rumoured that January to wanting him. Had he? bloody hell maybe we shouldn't be letting him go Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leeroy Posted August 21, 2023 Share Posted August 21, 2023 2 minutes ago, villan95 said: Had he? bloody hell maybe we shouldn't be letting him go Lol, you quoted me before I had edited it you little devil 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philosopher Posted August 21, 2023 Share Posted August 21, 2023 9 hours ago, StanBalaban said: You're looking at this from the perspective of a fan, but footballers want to play football first and foremost. Whether that's at the Villa or somewhere else, players want to play. No talented kids would want to join an academy of a club that isn't open to finding routes to regular football when they're in their early twenties. There has to be a pathway to the first team. He has done everything he could have to be getting regular starts in Europe and the league Cup at the very least. We need under 21 Villa trained for European squad. Currently we only have one of the young keepers and JJ, that means we still need 2 more to fill our 25 man squad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villan95 Posted August 21, 2023 Share Posted August 21, 2023 2 minutes ago, Philosopher said: There has to be a pathway to the first team. He has done everything he could have to be getting regular starts in Europe and the league Cup at the very least. We need under 21 Villa trained for European squad. Currently we only have one of the young keepers and JJ, that means we still need 2 more to fill our 25 man squad. I guess we'll just leave 2-3 spaces in the squad and use u21 players (who don't need to be registered) if needed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philosopher Posted August 21, 2023 Share Posted August 21, 2023 Just now, villan95 said: I guess we'll just leave 2-3 spaces in the squad and use u21 players (who don't need to be registered) if needed He is better than our under 21's. In fact before Sunday, I'd be starting him on our left instead of Bailey. He's ready. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villan95 Posted August 21, 2023 Share Posted August 21, 2023 1 minute ago, Philosopher said: He is better than our under 21's. In fact before Sunday, I'd be starting him on our left instead of Bailey. He's ready. Oh I've no doubt he is better than our other u21 options but clearly Unai isn't going to start him and he seems to want to go and play which is fair enough. I just meant in terms of the squad we register for Europe we can probably get away with registering around 22 senior players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
useless Posted August 21, 2023 Share Posted August 21, 2023 Seems to be pretty much what's happening other than going to Hull rather than Stoke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post markavfc40 Posted August 21, 2023 Popular Post Share Posted August 21, 2023 Over the last 2 seasons he has had two Championship loans and in 48 games scored 5 goals and got 1 assist. I know he has been at struggling clubs but that is a poor return and doesn't suggest he is on the verge of being able to step up to Prem level, let alone Prem level for a club striving to finish in the top 6. If he was as good as some of us seem to think he is then surely better clubs than Hull would be after him and lower table Prem clubs would be sniffing around him. If there were a number of clubs interested, and certainly if there were prem clubs, I am sure we could get more for him. Unfortunately it doesn't appear there are. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeypuzzle Posted August 21, 2023 Share Posted August 21, 2023 1 hour ago, Philosopher said: He is better than our under 21's. In fact before Sunday, I'd be starting him on our left instead of Bailey. He's ready. Bailey plays on our right. McGinn has played on the left both games so far. I know this doesn't alter your point, it's just that I'm pedantic! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abdulaziz1 Posted August 22, 2023 Share Posted August 22, 2023 I’m liking the fact that we started selling some of our youngsters this way. We still have some good ones coming, so we still have Young, Kellyman to play in UECL for example. I don’t think we’d buy Bidace after that but you never know. But there are a lot of positives, FFP, building relationships with Championship teams, building a reputation for the academy players, showing young players that we’re looking at their benefits as well as our benefits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinker Posted August 22, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted August 22, 2023 I would prefer sell on clauses to buy back but this new way of thinking is a refreshing change. Young players will not fully develop under loan deals, ultimately the club loaning the player has no real incentive to take the pain to develop a loan player, unless they are very talented and can get them promoted but even then they will lose the player or have to pay an inflated fee to ge them on a permanent. Jaden has a long way to go.......Ramsey will be back , I'm convinced of that, he's that good. Just hope he doesn't play against us next week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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