Ollie Watkins

[romavillan]

32 minutes ago, cheltenham_villa said:

yes, the point was that he can be afforded a bad game, possibly numerous bad games because he has credit in the bank with Southgate.

Probably 80% of the Euro squad is already known by England. Ollie is playing for a small number of remaining positions.

He's had something in Southgate for sure

[Brentfordnylons]

8 hours ago, GlobalVillan said:

I saw one review of Ollie online that said Toney is the better all round footballer.

Ive only ever seen Toney play against us so I'm not sure how true that is.

I have seen both many times and think Ollie is the better all round footballer.Although Ollie had a poor game along with others against Brazil Toney will have to improve on his current poor form to jump ahead.

[StefanAVFC]

I can’t believe it’s even a discussion. Toney missed most of the season due to his own stupidity and even since coming back he’s been bang average. 

[mallett]

Watkins needs Toney to have a poor game tonight. This guardian article says that Southgate has been talking up how big an opportunity it is for Toney this evening. I agree with the basic premise of the article that Watkins and Toney are competing for the same position in the squad as cover for Kane. And in that context it makes sense for Southgate to look at Toney in this game. I am a bit worried on behalf of Ollie that I don’t remember Southgate ever bigging him up in the way it suggests he has been Toney.

My preference would be for Watkins obviously - as a Villa fan. I think he offers England the chance to switch how they play. Kane has been pretty immobile as a forward since his succession of ankle injuries. Earlier on in his career, Kane was well known for his pressing and work rate but physically he couldn’t play like that anymore and he showed his quality by adapting his game to drop into midfield and pick a pass whilst continuing to score.

That means that on paper Toney is probably a better fit if you want the replacement for Kane to literally just be a poorer version of Kane. Someone who slots into the system so that England can play the same way. 
 

My worry would be is that this is Southgate’s preference. Whereas I would like England to switch systems entirely when Watkins is in the team, by playing with a far more fluid and mobile attacking style that makes more use of the attributes of Saka, Foden, and Bellingham. However Southgate hasn’t tried this so it’s not going to happen.

Kane has never won a trophy, is that because his goals come at the expense of the overall performance of the team? Before they were scuppered by injuries Spurs looked a much better team without Kane than with him.. He joins Bayern and for the first time in goodness knows how long they are not going to win the league.

For England, Kane is arguably a flat track bully perhaps he’s the reason England keep failing to make that final step up?

Realistically Kane is always going to be plan A. But in my opinion Ollie should be plan B but a very different plan B.

Here Southgate’s incredible Villa prejudice is an issue. He left Villa for the ‘bigger’ opportunities at Middlesbrough as a player which was weird at the time and frankly baffling with hindsight. The treatment of Grealish when he was a Villa player compared to when he was a city. Despite the media hype Pep didn’t make Grealish a better player he just taught him how to play in a different system. But Grealish was picked when he was crap for City and ignored when he was brilliant for Villa. Jack felt he would get more England opportunities playing for City rather than Villa and he was right.

For these reasons Watkins needs Toney to have a stinker or be completely anonymous tonight or else I think his place in the Euro squad is in danger. I don’t want Watkins to have his confidence knocked or head turned so here’s hoping for a terrible evening for Toney.

[JPJCB]

The media coverage has been ridiculously harsh on Watkins with lots of narrative coverage suggesting that it was practically his fault that England lost and that he’s missed his one chance to go to the Euros. The team was crap as a whole and created next to no chances. And it’s a bold move in any case to ignore the top goal scoring and assisting Englishman in the PL this year 

I dont mind Toney as a player- he’s a reliable scorer and has decent link up play. But he’s a piece of work who was rightly banned from the game for fraudulent behaviour and has a history of unsavoury incidents. As an England fan, I don’t want to see anyone with that sort of personality near the team. Watkins of course is almost diametrically opposite and has a very good character. It’s odd since I’d previously thought Southgate valued these sorts of things but obviously not 

[StefanAVFC]

2 hours ago, JPJCB said:

The media coverage has been ridiculously harsh on Watkins with lots of narrative coverage suggesting that it was practically his fault that England lost and that he’s missed his one chance to go to the Euros. 

It's mental isn't it?

10 assists, 16 goals was just to have a single chance in a meaningless friendly, and after that, it's over?

[cheltenham_villa]

25 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said:

It's mental isn't it?

10 assists, 16 goals was just to have a single chance in a meaningless friendly, and after that, it's over?

to be fair, that is the opinion of the media. I would expect much more consideration from the England leadership. Games are chances and performing certainly will be a big tick in the box. I think Konsa for instance really took a good chance in the week.

Ollie has been around that squad now for a number of meetups, they will know his capabilities and what he adds. Similarly for a 23 man squad, Gareth will probably only take two strikers so it does feel a straight shoot out with Toney. 

[Tom13]

3 hours ago, JPJCB said:

The media coverage has been ridiculously harsh on Watkins with lots of narrative coverage suggesting that it was practically his fault that England lost and that he’s missed his one chance to go to the Euros. The team was crap as a whole and created next to no chances. And it’s a bold move in any case to ignore the top goal scoring and assisting Englishman in the PL this year 

I dont mind Toney as a player- he’s a reliable scorer and has decent link up play. But he’s a piece of work who was rightly banned from the game for fraudulent behaviour and has a history of unsavoury incidents. As an England fan, I don’t want to see anyone with that sort of personality near the team. Watkins of course is almost diametrically opposite and has a very good character. It’s odd since I’d previously thought Southgate valued these sorts of things but obviously not 

I cannot stand Toney as a person so agree completely with you.

It shows how weak/clueless Southgate is though - basing his selections off one-off 90 minute performances instead of being certain of the type of forward he wants to take and making it work.

PS - why does it really matter anyway? Kane will play the full 90 every game unless injured.

[cheltenham_villa]

1 hour ago, Tom13 said:

I cannot stand Toney as a person so agree completely with you.

It shows how weak/clueless Southgate is though - basing his selections off one-off 90 minute performances instead of being certain of the type of forward he wants to take and making it work.

PS - why does it really matter anyway? Kane will play the full 90 every game unless injured.

an obvious point but it is the media that has suggested Ollie is now out based on one appearance. Not Southgate.

Hes made 10 appearances under Southgate and has been on the periphery of the tournament squads over the last few years.

Safe to say Southgate gives him more of a chance that the narrative suggests

[Tom13]

10 minutes ago, cheltenham_villa said:

an obvious point but it is the media that has suggested Ollie is now out based on one appearance. Not Southgate.

Hes made 10 appearances under Southgate and has been on the periphery of the tournament squads over the last few years.

Safe to say Southgate gives him more of a chance that the narrative suggests

Fair point. I always think the worst when it comes to GS, he'll never make me think otherwise.

[cheltenham_villa]

51 minutes ago, Tom13 said:

Fair point. I always think the worst when it comes to GS, he'll never make me think otherwise.

tactically i agree, personally i really dont believe any of the BS around bias and team selection. I dont think he hates villa, every message board in the country has a thread where they are astonished that X player has not been selected and believe GS has an agenda.

Personally i think its a tough job, no longer dominated by the best managers in the country and he bases selection on performance, suitability, player personality, flexibility a whole range of things.

I think Ezri and Ollie are both in a great position to be selected for squad that will only have 23 players in it. 

[Tom13]

1 minute ago, cheltenham_villa said:

tactically i agree, personally i really dont believe any of the BS around bias and team selection. I dont think he hates villa, every message board in the country has a thread where they are astonished that X player has not been selected and believe GS has an agenda.

Personally i think its a tough job, no longer dominated by the best managers in the country and he bases selection on performance, suitability, player personality, flexibility a whole range of things.

I think Ezri and Ollie are both in a great position to be selected for squad that will only have 23 players in it. 

I don't think he hates Villa either - but I do think he's clueless.

[david-avfc]

I don’t think Watkins will ever suit Southgate’s style, pass it around sideways and hope someone does something. Watkins has a lot of great attributes but generating something out of nothing isn’t one of them, he needs a proper team structure behind him but having a detailed plan how to attack the opposition isn’t how Southgate operates

[Adam2003]

Probably been said, but my concern is he’s a confidence player and can be a little fragile (an absurd thing to say about someone at his level - obviously he’s very mentally strong - but you know what I mean).

I hope what we don’t get is Toney coming in and scoring tonight, and Watkins’ mindset being “I had a big chance, I didn’t deliver, now I’ll miss the Euros” and coming back to Villa on a downer. Ideal obviously is he comes off the bench and gets a goal!

[Tom13]

I used to take WhoScored seriously, not anymore...

https://www.instagram.com/p/C4-3sxjtYCI/?igsh=MW1qZXpibTV2amN6aA==

Hojlund ahead of Watkins

[StefanAVFC]

His treatment of Grealish clearly shows he has/had an issue with Villa tbh.

Edited March 26 by StefanAVFC

[david-avfc]

1 hour ago, cheltenham_villa said:

tactically i agree, personally i really dont believe any of the BS around bias and team selection. I dont think he hates villa, every message board in the country has a thread where they are astonished that X player has not been selected and believe GS has an agenda.

Personally i think its a tough job, no longer dominated by the best managers in the country and he bases selection on performance, suitability, player personality, flexibility a whole range of things.

I think Ezri and Ollie are both in a great position to be selected for squad that will only have 23 players in it. 

I don’t think Southgate “hates” villa but it’s abundantly clear he has his biases towards the big clubs, impossible not to see if you watched England for the last 6 or 7 years. It’s always the case that players outside the Sky 6 clubs have to do at least twice as much as those who do play for the chosen clubs To get in the squad or start games.

[TRO]

23 hours ago, Brentfordnylons said:

I have seen both many times and think Ollie is the better all round footballer.Although Ollie had a poor game along with others against Brazil Toney will have to improve on his current poor form to jump ahead.

I think they do have differences, but I too think Ollie is the better all round....That said Toney has more aggression, but Ollie has more finesse imo.

Folk need to remember, it takes games for strikers to get used to the feeders and vice versa.....also anyone watching that game, must have been in awe of the Brazilians defensively.....so sharp to the ball, robust in the tackle, and fine readers of the game....Not all games will be as tough as that, to score....the one he missed, the defender, got something on it, so its unfair, to judge him on just that, like some have.

It seems whenever a villa player has a debut, or the odd game.... they have to give a worldie performance, to have another chance.....our players, get it in begrudgingly.

I see some England players have game after game of sub standard performances, and it just gets dismissed...other have one questionable game, and struggle for another chance.

Ollie said, before the game, players need to get used to his game, and he their game......that seems to have been lost, by fans who didn't want him in, in the first place.

Personally, I don't much care....because selfishly, I don't want him injured.....but I do feel the lad is getting unfair negativity, from some quarters.

Edited March 26 by TRO

[Tom13]

6 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said:

His treatment of Grealish clearly shows he has/had an issue with Villa tbh.

Nah, clearly shows nothing. But if anything, I'd say he had an issue with Grealish from their U21 days, not with Villa. But I think it was just as likely Southgate being stubborn and/or clueless. Along the lines of thinking, Jack doesn't play for a top four/six club, he can't be that good. That's how much of a basic thinker GS is.

[Paul33]

On 25/03/2024 at 12:40, rodders0223 said:

He wasn't very good, you can say it, it's fine and the simple truth about international football is, if you're not a prodigy or a truly world class player on the global stage - when you get a start you absolutely have to take the chance and Ollie didn't. 

 

^^^ THIS ^^^

Lots of anti-Southgate garbage on here from those who have forgotten what previous managers were like. Ollie did NOT take his chance. He didn't work hard enough and was lazy for 90% of the game. Not his ideal game as Brazil were all over him but this is a higher standard than Villa and he needs to up his game and not just coast around waiting for others to put it on a plate for him.

I agree with others, he will go to the Euros but solely because there are very few rivals out there.