The Catch-all Data Thread

[chrisp65]

On the beers in the nappy aisle and it’s relation to facial recognition and AI and algorithms and deep state satellite surveillance and data mining from loyalty cards.

I sometimes dabble in store layouts. 

There’s a lot less to it than you might imagine. 

Make sure the tins of expensive Dora The Explorer / Fireman Sam / Cars / Thomas Tank Engine spaghetti are eye level with a 2 year old sat in a trolley. 

 

Yeah, that’s about it.

Oh, and many customers will presume the bigger box is automatically better value for money, so every now and again, really whack ‘em for the laziness.

 

[VILLAMARV]

Pretty benign stuff if ultimately it's used to maximise sales in a shop setting. With the introduction of facial recognition cameras, I'm sure Tesco will be interested in the quality upgrade in their customer data this stuff can provide. Being able to analyse sales point data is one thing, but being able to see when a customer enters, how long they spend in the store, how long they spend in each aisle, what they interact with in store and so on means better data to analyse. But sure, if it's to sell more chocolates or whatever it's hardly worth getting too worked up about.

Of course we're increasingly seeing the facial recognition stuff being used by the Welsh constabulary be it to monitor Cardiff and Swansea fans or perhaps when they are caught pointing cameras at independence marches in Caernarfon or Black Lives Matters gatherings on the steps of Cardiff museum. 

They trialled this stuff on the severn bridge did they not? With the news coverage pointing towards escaped convicts recognised iirc. 

And the A.I. is quite unreliable atm we are told, so it needs training/improving and it's hard for me to ignore that we're the guinea pigs for that. 

Where does the raw data go? Like the concerns over the raw data in the nhs app. Whose data protection laws apply if it's sold on the market, or lost, or hacked etc. They're legitimate concerns. Even if we assume no impropriety in the companies collecting it. The Cambridge Analytica experience surely stands as a massive warning that such assumptions may not be based much on the reality. 

And when we cast a cursory glance at the Chinese social score linked systems it's not hard to see how far reaching these things could become.

So while getting worked up over a bit of tech being used to maximise corporate profit may be a bit of ludditism the questions over what framework is being put in place that may have implications for our future selves our those of future generations are important ones imo. 

[villakram]

When they see they are wasting their time with men (and some ladies) who go in and pick up the same-ish stuff and leave with minimal fluffing about.

[VILLAMARV]

[bickster]

Quote

Co-op is using facial recognition tech to scan and track shoppers

Branches of the Southern Co-op are using facial recognition to look for potential shoplifters. The roll-out raises concerns about the creep of surveillance tech in the private sector

Branches of Co-op in the south of England have been using real-time facial recognition cameras to scan shoppers entering stores.

In total 18 shops from the Southern Co-op franchise have been using the technology in an effort to reduce shoplifting and abuse against staff. As a result of the trials, other regional Co-op franchises are now believed to be trialling facial recognition systems.Use of facial recognition by police forces has been controversial with the Court of Appeal ruling parts of its use to be unlawful earlier this year. But its use has been creeping into the private sector, but the true scale of its use remains unknown.

Southern Co-op's facial recognition was quietly introduced for limited trials during the the last 18 months. While shops with face recognising cameras displayed signs telling customers about its operation, no general public announcement was made before the trials started. The rollout has left privacy advocates questioning whether the shops can fully justify the use of the technology under data protection laws. They also worry about creeping surveillance and the ability of police forces to access private systems...

WIred... more on link

More from same article, this bit is particularly illegal. Against Article 22 of the GDPR

Quote

The Facewatch system doesn’t store or add everyone’s faces to a central database but instead amalgamates watchlists created by the companies it works with. Facewatch says 'subjects of interest’ can be individuals “reasonably suspected” of carrying out crimes, which have been witnessed by CCTV or staff members. A person does not have to be charged or convicted with a crime to be flagged and their data is kept for two years.

Hey, they "reasonably suspect" you may have stolen something another time, you're on the list. Black men particularly should stop shopping at the Co-Op given how good facial recognition software is at recognising them

Your caring, sharing Co-Op

[Davkaus]

Good strategy. Start with the shoplifters, nobody is going to defend criminals, and if you've got nothing to hide...But, now, well, those cameras are already there, so what's the harm if their use is expanded a little?

We have some of the most recorded cities in the world, and the common rebuttal was it's not that big a problem, because they're mostly privately owned, for limited use, and we're not being tracked by them. 

Edited December 12, 2020 by Davkaus

[VILLAMARV]

Any old excuse to post this again. I'm listening to Hans Rosling from the grave. If anyone has a spare hour...

 

[VILLAMARV]

On 12/12/2020 at 10:46, bickster said:

WIred... more on link

More from same article, this bit is particularly illegal. Against Article 22 of the GDPR

Hey, they "reasonably suspect" you may have stolen something another time, you're on the list. Black men particularly should stop shopping at the Co-Op given how good facial recognition software is at recognising them

Your caring, sharing Co-Op

 

On 12/12/2020 at 11:18, Davkaus said:

Good strategy. Start with the shoplifters, nobody is going to defend criminals, and if you've got nothing to hide...But, now, well, those cameras are already there, so what's the harm if their use is expanded a little?

We have some of the most recorded cities in the world, and the common rebuttal was it's not that big a problem, because they're mostly privately owned, for limited use, and we're not being tracked by them. 

Funny how talking points re-surface

Was subjected to Jeremy Vine phone-in on Radio2 the other day and this was a topic for "discussion" Some guy from the company selling their service and some lady from Big Brother watch or somesuch. And a whole load of brendas from Halifax all trotting out the line about doing something about crime.

Private company's running their own database of photos of people uploaded by the people paying for the service. The Coop was mentioned because they said they suffer over a thousand shop lifts a day. no context, no amount of shops mentioned. Didn't @Demitri_C get not let in a club once because of a bad review on facebook or was it another poster? Anyway, that sprang to mind as I was muttering swear words at the radio. The way they suggested there was nothing to fear because it was private companies and not a government thing was hilarious in a really terrifying way.

Kinda sad that it reminded me of a chat I once had on VT 3 years ago (on many levels !)

But yeah, you know that Chinese system, awful innit, imagine that level of control etcetc

[VILLAMARV]

Interesting chat on holiday with people mocking a data scientist I know who refuses to use whatsapp after facebook bought it in favour of signal.

If you're one of those who thinks it's unimportant that companies, governments and organisations are collecting fairly innocuous data on your internet use, like those on holiday, then this is a great little chat with Carissa Veliz. I'll be sending links to my friends

I'm sure it's available on your podcast supplier of choice, here's a spotify link.

I quite like the philosophy bites podcast.

[sidcow]

20 minutes ago, VILLAMARV said:

Interesting chat on holiday with people mocking a data scientist I know who refuses to use whatsapp after facebook bought it in favour of signal.

If you're one of those who thinks it's unimportant that companies, governments and organisations are collecting fairly innocuous data on your internet use, like those on holiday, then this is a great little chat with Carissa Veliz. I'll be sending links to my friends

I'm sure it's available on your podcast supplier of choice, here's a spotify link.

I quite like the philosophy bites podcast.

bUT ThEy tRAcK yOu WiTh vAcCiNaTiOnS

[VILLAMARV]

30 minutes ago, sidcow said:

bUT ThEy tRAcK yOu WiTh vAcCiNaTiOnS

I appreciate (maybe I mean hope ) it's an attempt at humour, and the mocking around the table wasn't that stupid obviously, but it was interesting to me that the people that use that app around the table thought they would school an individual who literally deals with this stuff on a daily basis, and in an area actually covered by some existing ethics laws, on the insignificance of their own personal data. Because, you know, I want to chat with my mates and I don't want to download an app that does the same thing as whatsapp used to do when it was cool. 

It's hardly tin foil hat stuff when the owners of whatsapp literally sold data to cambrige analytica and were hauled in front of a US version of a government enquiry as a result.

Weird to me that people seem concerned with the Russians or the Chinese or the Trumps or the Farages of this world using targetted algorythms to literally attempt to sway elections in leagues with global corportions, or create social credit systems to dictate who 'earns' access to goods and services, but not so concerned if it means clicking on a different icon in their own lives. Baffles me.

In fairness, the Associate Professor of philosophy and ethics at the University of Oxford (Institute for Ethics in AI, Faculty of Philosophy), specialising in ethics of artificial intelligence (AI Ethics), applied philosophy, ethics, moral philosophy, political philosophy and practical ethics interviewed in the podcast doesn't mention vaccinations once. The Economist chose to put her book 'Priacy is Power' in their list of books of the year in 2020 fwiw.

But yeah, down with experts innit.

[sidcow]

18 minutes ago, VILLAMARV said:

I appreciate (maybe I mean hope ) it's an attempt at humour, and the mocking around the table wasn't that stupid obviously, but it was interesting to me that the people that use that app around the table thought they would school an individual who literally deals with this stuff on a daily basis, and in an area actually covered by some existing ethics laws, on the insignificance of their own personal data. Because, you know, I want to chat with my mates and I don't want to download an app that does the same thing as whatsapp used to do when it was cool. 

It's hardly tin foil hat stuff when the owners of whatsapp literally sold data to cambrige analytica and were hauled in front of a US version of a government enquiry as a result.

Weird to me that people seem concerned with the Russians or the Chinese or the Trumps or the Farages of this world using targetted algorythms to literally attempt to sway elections in leagues with global corportions, or create social credit systems to dictate who 'earns' access to goods and services, but not so concerned if it means clicking on a different icon in their own lives. Baffles me.

In fairness, the Associate Professor of philosophy and ethics at the University of Oxford (Institute for Ethics in AI, Faculty of Philosophy), specialising in ethics of artificial intelligence (AI Ethics), applied philosophy, ethics, moral philosophy, political philosophy and practical ethics interviewed in the podcast doesn't mention vaccinations once. The Economist chose to put her book 'Priacy is Power' in their list of books of the year in 2020 fwiw.

But yeah, down with experts innit.

Too long, didn't read. 

[OutByEaster?]

2 hours ago, VILLAMARV said:

The Economist chose to put her book 'Priacy is Power' in their list of books of the year in 2020 fwiw.

She could probably have done with a better editor looking at the title.

[VILLAMARV]

5 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

She could probably have done with a better editor looking at the title.

out of likes soo....

[Rds1983]

6 hours ago, VILLAMARV said:

Interesting chat on holiday with people mocking a data scientist I know who refuses to use whatsapp after facebook bought it in favour of signal.

If you're one of those who thinks it's unimportant that companies, governments and organisations are collecting fairly innocuous data on your internet use, like those on holiday, then this is a great little chat with Carissa Veliz. I'll be sending links to my friends

I'm sure it's available on your podcast supplier of choice, here's a spotify link.

I quite like the philosophy bites podcast.

I would gladly never use WhatsApp ever again. However, it's impossible to get any of my friends or family to move to a different messenger service.

[Lichfield Dean]

I have no idea why everyone doesn't just move to Signal. It is exactly the same, it takes no effort to move, and it isn't owned by Meta. It just totally baffles me that people are so lazy/uncaring.

[Xela]

18 minutes ago, Rds1983 said:

I would gladly never use WhatsApp ever again. However, it's impossible to get any of my friends or family to move to a different messenger service.

 

11 minutes ago, Lichfield Dean said:

I have no idea why everyone doesn't just move to Signal. It is exactly the same, it takes no effort to move, and it isn't owned by Meta. It just totally baffles me that people are so lazy/uncaring.

i agree but I have the same issue as @Rds1983 in that all my pals use WhatsApp. 

[Rds1983]

4 minutes ago, Xela said:

 

i agree but I have the same issue as @Rds1983 in that all my pals use WhatsApp. 

It's a difficult enough battle getting wife to have antivirus/malware and a vpn on her phone and that's after my sister in law's business was hacked via a breach on her phone (suspected virus via Facebook) and they lost over £20k.

[VILLAMARV]

As Mr No Phone Weirdo it's all academic to me. But that was also why it interested me. We were all having a nice meal and the subject of the statistician sat at the table being the only one (with a phone obvs) who couldnt receive location pings via whatsapp to find the restaurant became the focus of the conversation. So much good natured merriment and banter between friends about the data scientist getting with the tech programme. And genuine interest from the rest about their reasoning as to why they favour one free to use service over another free to use service. But as you all anecdotally attest to there was this obvious backlash to the notion of changing. I'm not sure whether it was brand loyalty or some sort of defensive response to the idea that anything they were doing could be deemed worth of critique or laziness as mentioned above but it was visceral.

Personally the only time whatsapp came onto my radar at all was back in my phone owning days (not a smart one) when a sports team I was a part of would chat over it but I couldn't access it from my computer and they found it hilariously too much effort to send a text or email or use a different app/ find another platform that we could all access. So no biggie, I turned up for training when it was cancelled and that sort of thing. I've never used it and am unlikely to do so, but my friend (the signal using one) said much the same as you guys in that only their closest friends who genuinely wanted to contact them that had got tired over time of losing contact - had downloaded the signal app, and kind of under duress.

 

[limpid]

12 hours ago, Rds1983 said:

It's a difficult enough battle getting wife to have antivirus/malware and a vpn on her phone and that's after my sister in law's business was hacked via a breach on her phone (suspected virus via Facebook) and they lost over £20k.

Much more likely to be account takeover, not malware on  a phone. If it was malware on the phone, it would effectively be a zero day and AV wouldn't help.

There is zero value having av on a phone as long as you keep the os and apps up to date.