Racism Part two

[StefanAVFC]

Irregardless of whether it's a wider idiom, surely the fact it has the n word in it is enough for it to be absurd?

I don't think in 2022, 'I didn't know the n word was offensive' holds much weight tbh.

[Risso]

7 minutes ago, bobzy said:

I think someone would be gone at my place of work.  You can't be throwing that sort of language around and you'd have to live under a rock to not know that phrase could be deemed to be offensive.

Indeed. It's an extremely offensive word, that even if it's not aimed directly at anybody is still going to upset most people who hear it. Just because we're back to double digit inflation and mass strikes, doesn't mean that language has to go back to the 1970s as well.

[Stevo985]

10 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said:

Irregardless of whether it's a wider idiom, surely the fact it has the n word in it is enough for it to be absurd?

I don't think in 2022, 'I didn't know the n word was offensive' holds much weight tbh.

Yeah agreed, that's what I was getting at earlier. We're way past the point where you can claim you didn't know the N word was offensive, whether it's used as part of a "well known" phrase or not (again, I'd contest that that phrase is well known at all)

[Risso]

Just the idiom itself is offensive, even if the 'n' word was changed to something else. It's basically saying that black people can't be trusted or are to be viewed with suspicion. The fact it has that word in it, just makes it's doubly horrible. It's a horrible, dehumanising word, and imagine having to hear somebody use it at work if you are a black person.  So apologies to the kids of the person sacked for using it, no pocket money for a while, but daddy's a horrendous racist.

[villa4europe]

2 hours ago, Stevo985 said:

Yeah agreed, that's what I was getting at earlier. We're way past the point where you can claim you didn't know the N word was offensive, whether it's used as part of a "well known" phrase or not (again, I'd contest that that phrase is well known at all)

Yeah I would expect that you might be able to squirm out of being labelled a racist but you wouldn't escape being declared a moron who the employer no longer wants there 

Maybe not a directly sackable offence but your days would be numbered, from my experience of my old company they sat on someone they didn't want (not for racism but just because he was shit as his job) and within a month they found him leaving site early on a Friday afternoon with some waste materials in his boot to work on a house that he had as a side project... I don't think anyone in the construction industry is clean enough if their employer started to actually look at them they would find grounds to terminate an employment contract (says me working from home watching TV and on VT...)

I've seen something similar to that done 3 times now by 2 employers, including one that searched through an employers social media history and found grounds to sack them 

[Follyfoot]

2 hours ago, Stevo985 said:

Yeah agreed, that's what I was getting at earlier. We're way past the point where you can claim you didn't know the N word was offensive, whether it's used as part of a "well known" phrase or not (again, I'd contest that that phrase is well known at all)

Then you would be wrong (with regard to contesting the phrase was well known, especially to the age of the accused in this thread) 

[maqroll]

9 hours ago, Follyfoot said:

Not quite sure how to respond to this 

Ha, no need to. I was just thinking out loud.

[phily85]

1 hour ago, Follyfoot said:

Then you would be wrong (with regard to contesting the phrase was well known, especially to the age of the accused in this thread) 

Maybe well known for the 1st 30 years of their life but certainly not well used for the last 30.

Age is not an excuse 

[mjmooney]

13 hours ago, maqroll said:

I've never heard it before.

It's an American idiom. 

Quote

n****r in the woodpile or n****r in the fence is a figure of speech originating in the United States meaning "some fact of considerable importance that is not disclosed—something suspicious or wrong".

Commonly used in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, its usage has since drastically declined owing to its use of the ethnic slur n****r, and use of the phrase by public figures has often been criticized owing to use of the slur in the term.

Origin

Both the "fence" and "woodpile" variants developed about the same time in the period of 1840–1850, when the Underground Railroad was flourishing. The evidence is slight, but it is presumed that they were derived from actual instances of the concealment of fugitive slaves in their flight north under piles of firewood or within hiding places in stone walls.

Another possible origin comes from the practice of transporting pulpwood on special railroad cars. In the era of slavery, the pulpwood cars were built with an outer frame with the wood being stacked inside in moderately neat rows and stacks. However, given the nature of the cars, it was possible to smuggle persons in the pile itself, possibly giving rise to the term.[citation needed]

An 1886 article in the San Antonio Light attributed origin of the "fence" variant to an 1840s horse race in Mississippi, during which a person was hidden in a fence next to the racetrack in order to scare a favorited horse during the race.

Usage

The idiom was once common in literature and film, and has also appeared in musical lyrics. Examples include:

Literature

In the 1891 novel Emmett Bonlore by Opie Read, a scene in a bar describes how a fiddle player, "Mr. Potts, yielding to a general clamor for 'n****r on the Wood-pile' had begun to sound the first notes of that stirring piece of music..."

Zane Grey's 1921 novel The Mysterious Rider uses the expression twice to explain a situation in which facts were purposefully omitted. In the 1929 RKO film Street Girl, the phrase is spoken by Joseph Cawthorn, but it has been erased from the print that Turner Classic Movies shows.[citation needed]

In the original 1927 version of The Hardy Boys book The House on the Cliff, Frank Hardy uses the expression. It was removed when the story was revised in 1959.[citation needed]

In Chapter 3 of Absalom, Absalom (1936), William Faulkner uses the phrase when referring to the success of a cotton plantation: "... some among his fellow citizens who believed even yet that there was a n****r in the woodpile somewhere."

Agatha Christie used the phrase as the title of chapter 18 of the 1937 Hercule Poirot novel Dumb Witness, which was later published in the U.S. as Poirot Loses a Client. The chapter was later retitled "A Cuckoo in the Nest". A character also uses the phrase in Chapter 22 of her 1953 book After the Funeral. The phrase was also used by a character in early editions of Christie's novel And Then There Were None (originally released under the title Ten Little n****rs), but was changed in later editions to There's a fly in the ointment. In 1952, in the novel They Do It with Mirrors, published in the U.S. as Murder with Mirrors, she has a character use the phrase. It appears in editions published as late as 1985. In her 1970 novel Passenger to Frankfurt, she has a character use the phrase in chapter 23.

The phrase is used in The Razor's Edge (1944) by Somerset Maugham. One of the American characters, on the brink of closing a business deal, says to the narrator, "I'll fly down to Texas to give the outfit the once-over, and you bet I'll keep my eyes peeled for a n****r in the woodpile before I cough up any ... dough."

Western author Louis L'Amour used a variant in Crossfire Trail (1954): "Now there seemed to be a larger African in the woodpile, or several of them."

The novel Marnie by Winston Graham first published in 1961 features the phrase but the Alfred Hitchcock adaptation does not.

The British mystery writer Dick Francis used it in chapter 18 of his first novel, 1962's Dead Cert.

Other writing

Dr. Seuss used the term in a 1929 print cartoon "Cross-Section of The World's Most Prosperous Department Store", wherein customers browse through a department store looking for items to make their lives more difficult. The panels show a series of scenarios based on popular figures of speech: a man with a net trying to catch a fly for his ointment, another looking at monkey wrenches to throw into his machinery, one examining haystacks with matching needles, and finally a man looking at a selection of people drawn with stereotypical black features for his woodpile.

Erle Stanley Gardner uses the phrase in several early Perry Mason mysteries, including The Case of the Velvet Claws (1933), The Case of the Stuttering Bishop (1936), and The Case of the Substitute Face (1938).[citation needed]

In the book Your Health: A Corrective System of Exercising that Revolutionizes the Entire Field of Physical Education (1934), Joseph Pilates used the phrase.

Computer scientist Edsger W. Dijkstra used the phrase in a published reply to referees conducting scholarly peer review, circa 1975.

Films

An American film comedy titled A n****r in the Woodpile was released in 1904.

In the 1930 pre-Code comedy Not So Dumb, Marion Davies consistently and constantly convolutes common idioms and expressions. After finally finding misplaced billiard balls that she had used as darning eggs, she proudly exclaims, "I just knew there was a woodpile in the n****r when I couldn't find 'em."[citation needed]

A visual gag in the Looney Tunes animated cartoon Porky's Railroad from 1937 refers to the phrase.

W. C. Fields used variations of this phrase in two of his films: In You Can't Cheat an Honest Man (1939) he says there is "an Ubangi in the fuel supply", and in My Little Chickadee (1940) he says there is "an Ethiopian in the fuel supply".[citation needed]

In Harry Revier's 1938 film, Child Bride, the phrase is used in one scene where a character says "I knew you had a n****r in the woodpile."

Music

Old-time band Skillet Lickers recording a song called "n****r in the Woodpile" in 1930.

In the song, "This Could Be True", Pat Kirkwood and Graham Payn sing the phrase in Noël Coward's 1950 musical Ace of Clubs.[citation needed]

English music group Supertramp used the phrase in the lyrics of their song "Potter" from their 1971 album Indelibly Stamped.

Another English band, 10cc, used the phrase in their song "The Second Sitting for the Last Supper" from their album The Original Soundtrack from 1975.

Contemporary use by public figures

The phrase declined in use during the 20th century, and now its occasional use by public figures has often been followed by controversy and apology. Examples include:

During Italia 90 coverage on BBC Sport, Sir Geoff Hurst, in discussion with Bob Wilson, used the expression whilst sitting next to Garth Crooks.

In 1994, judge Inge Bernstein used the term in a summation to a Liverpool county court jury. She immediately apologised. The plaintiff, who was black, brought a damages action to the Court of Appeal supported by Peter Herbert, the chair of the Society of Black Lawyers. The appeal was rejected in 1996, ruled as an inadvertent (but highly offensive and inappropriate) mistake which was immediately withdrawn, and one which did not refer to the plaintiff or prejudice the jury against him.

In July 2008, the leader of the Conservative Party, David Cameron, was urged to sack Conservative peer Lord Dixon-Smith, who said in the House of Lords that concerns about government housing legislation were "the n****r in the woodpile". Dixon-Smith said the phrase had "slipped out without my thinking", and that "It was common parlance when I was younger".

In July 2017, the phrase was again used by Conservative Party politician Anne Marie Morris who said that Brexit without a deal with the European Union was the "real n****r in the woodpile". She later said, "The comment was totally unintentional. I apologise unreservedly for any offence caused." However, she was suspended the same day by the party's chief whip, on the orders of the party leader, Prime Minister Theresa May. The Conservative Party whip was restored to Morris on 12 December 2017, one day before a crucial vote on the Brexit process. Although Morris voted with the Conservative Government, the Government was defeated by four votes.

In 2018, it was revealed that Irish race car driver and commentator Derek Daly had used the phrase in a radio interview in May 1983. Daly explained he was a foreign driver now in America, driving for an American team, with an American crew, and with an American sponsor—and that if things did not go well, he would be the only n****r in the woodpile. His comment caused an immediate uproar from people listening in Gasoline Alley as they warned him of the volatility of that phrase. Daly apologized and said the phrase had been an Irish colloquialism, and was not intended as a racial slur. Once it was revealed, Daly lost his commentator job. His son, who had not been born at the time the comments were made, also lost his sponsor for the weekend.

In 2019, the Australian Communications and Media Authority (ACMA) ruled that radio station 2GB breached the Commercial Radio Code of Practice when the broadcaster Alan Jones used a "racially charged phrase" during a segment in 2018. ACMA received numerous complaints after Jones used the controversial phrase in August 2018, while discussing the looming second Liberal Party of Australia leadership spill. "The n****r in the woodpile here, if one can use that expression – and I'm not going to yield to people who tell us that certain words in the language are forbidden – the person who's playing hard to get is Mathias Cormann", Jones told listeners. ACMA found that, while the phrase was widely considered racist, its use in the broadcast did not likely incite "hatred", "serious contempt" or "severe ridicule". 2GB's management agreed the term will not be used on-air again.

In November 2019, a Downing Street aide alleged that Prince Andrew, Duke of York, had used the phrase during a trade meeting.

In June 2020, a city councillor in Taupo, New Zealand, was subject to official complaints and a code of conduct investigation after using the phrase in a council meeting.

In November 2021, the vice chairman of South Kesteven District Council in Lincolnshire, England, Councillor Ian Stokes, was suspended from his party and later resigned after using the phrase whilst chairing a governance and audit committee on 20 October. The meeting had been broadcast live on YouTube and sparked a petition calling for his resignation.

Wikipedia

 

[StefanAVFC]

Again, not sure whether it is or isn't well-known is relevant. The problematic word here is the n word and whether it's part of an idiom or not, it's totally unacceptable in its usage.

[Follyfoot]

1 hour ago, phily85 said:

Maybe well known for the 1st 30 years of their life but certainly not well used for the last 30.

Age is not an excuse 

Thanks for the history lesson but seeing as I was commenting on the posters contesting of it never being a well known and used phrase and nothing more i fail to see the relevance of your reply 

[phily85]

2 minutes ago, Follyfoot said:

Thanks for the history lesson but seeing as I was commenting on the posters contesting of it never being a well known and used phrase and nothing more i fail to see the relevance of your reply 

He said he would argue it's a well known phrase as would I. You saying it was a well known phase because of her age is completely irrelevant. Being well known 30 / 40 years ago does not make it well known now.

[Risso]

39 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said:

Again, not sure whether it is or isn't well-known is relevant. The problematic word here is the n word and whether it's part of an idiom or not, it's totally unacceptable in its usage.

Agreed, you wouldn't call a local shop a "p*** shop" just because that was in common usage 40 years ago.

[Follyfoot]

6 minutes ago, phily85 said:

He said he would argue it's a well known phrase as would I. You saying it was a well known phase because of her age is completely irrelevant. Being well known 30 / 40 years ago does not make it well known now.

Look at the post above by @mjmooney  

 

[phily85]

2 minutes ago, Follyfoot said:

Look at the post above by @mjmooney  

 

Great a list of when it was used between mid 1800 and 1950

[Follyfoot]

8 minutes ago, phily85 said:

Great a list of when it was used between mid 1800 and 1950

And between 1994 and 2020 

Pointless argument

Chau 

 

Edited September 27, 2022 by Follyfoot

[Demitri_C]

 

Quote

 

Clicky

Rupa Huq has Labour whip suspended after Kwasi Kwarteng comments

Party whip suspended after Labour MP accused of making ‘racist’ 

A Labour MP has had the party whip suspended after she was accused of making a “racist” comment by claiming that the chancellor, Kwasi Kwarteng, was “superficially” black.

Rupa Huq, a former shadow Home Office minister, was recorded at an event held on Monday during a fringe event as part of Labour’s annual conference in Liverpool hosted by British Future and the Black Equity Organisation and also attended by the party’s chair, Anneliese Dodds.

Huq can be heard on a short recording obtained by the Guido Fawkes website saying: “I’m sorry if I was not making myself understood clearly. He superficially is a black man.

She said Kwarteng went to “the top schools in the country” and added: “If you hear him on the Today programme, you wouldn’t know he’s black.”

Huq faced swift pressure to apologise, with a senior Labour source calling the comments “clearly totally inappropriate” and David Lammy, the shadow foreign secretary, telling BBC’s Politics Live programme: “I think those comment are unfortunate. I wouldn’t have made them myself and clearly I hope Rupa apologises and retracts that.”

 

Jake Berry, the chair of the Conservative party, wrote to the Labour leader, Keir Starmer, saying he had “serious concerns” about the remarks. He called for Huq to lose the Labour whip, and added: “I trust you will join me in unequivocally condemning these comments as nothing less than racist.”

The Guardian understands Huq had the whip suspended on Tuesday afternoon.

 

 

 

Edited September 27, 2022 by Demitri_C

[phily85]

30 minutes ago, Follyfoot said:

And between 1994 and 2020 

Pointless argument

Chau 

 

I wouldnt call some instances of it being used, and causing a controversy because of it, being widely known but each to their own 

Cya 

[Stevo985]

7 hours ago, Follyfoot said:

Then you would be wrong (with regard to contesting the phrase was well known, especially to the age of the accused in this thread) 

I didn’t say it was never well known. I said I’d contest that it IS well known. This woman said this phrase the other day. If it was 40 years ago when supposedly this was such a well known phrase then it’s a different story. 
 

But that is not a well known phrase in 2022

[Davkaus]

5 hours ago, Demitri_C said:

 

 

 

Jake Berry is a comedy genius.