TRO Posted May 8, 2020 Share Posted May 8, 2020 5 minutes ago, sne said: Yeah I agree, but Smith has never managed a team that was expected to get promoted. Except for the season at Villa, where he did. Despite inheriting a team without a defense. No one would have expected those Brentford sides to concede less than 1 goal per game. But based on this season it appears we still haven't got a defence or more accurately haven't got a defensive capability as a team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted May 8, 2020 Share Posted May 8, 2020 1 minute ago, villalad21 said: Sure but he's had money to spend on the defense now and we still are leaky as hell. If we lose Jack i think we can finish in the top 6 in the Championship, but i just can't see us achieving automatic promotion with this open style of football. We're not good enough offensively. Well that's partly depending on how our team will look in that scenario and partly depending on how the teams we come up against in that scenario will look. And we have absolutely zero idea about either so who knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted May 8, 2020 Share Posted May 8, 2020 7 minutes ago, TRO said: So you think Deans team this season has been defensively competent.....is that what you are saying? What? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted May 8, 2020 Share Posted May 8, 2020 (edited) 28 minutes ago, TRO said: I think he makes salient points.....its just some of us find analysis of our play unpalatable. Why would you get wound up?....It started, i think by referring to open play.....we have the worst defensive record in the league, despite the defensive improvements in personnel....i think thats a fair observation. I watch the games ,every home game, which is our best venue and we are too open and too benevolent in our general play, without relying on the League table to confirm it to me. why can't we at least admit it. We are two open and our defence is shit. I get that. But to say there has been nothing good out of the season and it’s embarrassing is what winds me up. It’s pure hyperbole. Edited May 8, 2020 by Vive_La_Villa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted May 8, 2020 Share Posted May 8, 2020 (edited) 45 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said: Always has to come to Sheffield United. If every promoted team managed that can you imagine the competition for top 6. It’s such a cop out to point to the one team that shocked everyone. Why don’t you compare us to the Championship champions instead? Nah, it won’t fit your argument. Well he could have quoted Wolves.....but I guess that wouldn't fit the argument either. To quote Sheff Utd is a very reasonable shout.....no fancy frills, no big time charlie manager, no prima donna players, just a clear concise team build that has a workrate and aggression at the heart of everything they do.....they make the opposition, know they are in a game. Shocked.....They didn't shock me. I am surprised they are so high up the league.....but I will be shocked, if they struggle next season, that will shock me. The reason we don't quote Norwich is because its the very point we are challenging, they too can't defend. If you can't defend in the Premier League, you have no future, in it.....that to me is clear, crystal clear......making that point is not to say "park the bus "football is what I am aiming for, on the contrary, offensively football is crucial too.....but its a league, where you have to have both...one alone is no good. Look at Wolves, they can defend too...as can Crystal Palace and Burnley. but I guess the counter there is they have been acclimatised to the division.....if you can find reasons why we are poor at defending, keep believing it.....but don't be surprised, when it takes us nowhere. Edited May 8, 2020 by TRO 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted May 8, 2020 Share Posted May 8, 2020 13 minutes ago, Zatman said: What? Spare the theatrics, just answer the question. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted May 8, 2020 Share Posted May 8, 2020 31 minutes ago, villalad21 said: But we're discussing what it takes to achieve automatic promotion. In most cases you got to have a strong defense. Unless you are incredibly strong in the attack and do what Norwich did. Which is why we are using our defence under Smith in the championship to determine how we will do in the championship! You can’t use our defence in the Premier League to decide whether we would be good enough for automatic promotion or not. Makes no sense. for the record I don’t care if we sack Smith. I don’t even care about football anymore. But you my friend are on the wind up once again and then really gets my goat. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted May 8, 2020 Share Posted May 8, 2020 2 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said: We are two open and our defence is shit. I get that. But to see there has been nothing good out of the season and it’s embarrassing is what winds me up. It’s pure hyperbole. So I don't understand the argument....thats what we are saying. It started by Villa lad saying we are not defensively capable of going up automatically, if we are unfortunate enough to go down.....it was his opinion, which I share.....that was being contested, with various examples of it not being so. No one is saying nothing good has come from the season....we was talking about our open play being culpable to our defeats. If you want to list all the good things during the season, go ahead, fill your boots. I have had plenty of games, I have enjoyed....mainly the full stadium atmosphere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted May 8, 2020 Share Posted May 8, 2020 1 minute ago, TRO said: So I don't understand the argument....thats what we are saying. It started by Villa lad saying we are not defensively capable of going up automatically, if we are unfortunate enough to go down.....it was his opinion, which I share.....that was being contested, with various examples of it not being so. No one is saying nothing good has come from the season....we was talking about our open play being culpable to our defeats. If you want to list all the good things during the season, go ahead, fill your boots. I have had plenty of games, I have enjoyed....mainly the full stadium atmosphere. Villalad said exactly that. He is also saying we wouldn’t get automatic promotion because Smiths teams can’t defend. Even though under Smith we had the second best defence in the championship after he got his signings in. These are the points I am debating with him. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted May 8, 2020 Share Posted May 8, 2020 7 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said: Villalad said exactly that. He is also saying we wouldn’t get automatic promotion because Smiths teams can’t defend. Even though under Smith we had the second best defence in the championship after he got his signings in. These are the points I am debating with him. Ok I will split them i think some good things have come from the season. I think its a valid view to say he has,doubts about automatic promotion on the basis of our inability to defend. I will leave you to it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villalad21 Posted May 8, 2020 Share Posted May 8, 2020 10 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said: Even though under Smith we had the second best defence in the championship after he got his signings in. And i'm saying that's too low of a sample size. That 10 game winning run was like what? 4 weeks? I am saying Smith has to prove he can organize a defense over a whole season. I think you are very, very optimistic in our chances in the Championship. Some of the stuff we've seen this season is basic stuff. Like defending a corner. We concede the most amount of goals from set pieces out of all the teams in the league. And the Championship is an even more physical league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted May 8, 2020 Share Posted May 8, 2020 (edited) 9 minutes ago, villalad21 said: And i'm saying that's too low of a sample size. That 10 game winning run was like what? 4 weeks? 2nd March - April 28th Coincidently when you didnt post as much Edited May 8, 2020 by Zatman 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Okonokos Posted May 8, 2020 Share Posted May 8, 2020 6 minutes ago, villalad21 said: And i'm saying that's too low of a sample size. That 10 game winning run was like what? 4 weeks? I am saying Smith has to prove he can organize a defense over a whole season. I think you are very, very optimistic in our chances in the Championship. Some of the stuff we've seen this season is basic stuff. Like defending a corner. We concede the most amount of goals from set pieces out of all the teams in the league. And the Championship is an even more physical league. But you said we play too open in the Championship under Smith. I pointed out that he turned our defence from third worst to second best in the league in one window, so imagine what he could do given a bit more time, say like a full summer window. There's every reason to expect that he'd have us playing defensively solid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted May 8, 2020 Share Posted May 8, 2020 1 minute ago, villalad21 said: And i'm saying that's too low of a sample size. That 10 game winning run was like what? 4 weeks? I am saying Smith has to prove he can organize a defense over a whole season. I think you are very, very optimistic in our chances in the Championship. Some of the stuff we've seen this season is basic stuff. Like defending a corner. We concede the most amount of goals from set pieces out of all the teams in the league. And the Championship is an even more physical league. I agree totally. I don't buy the example they presented, I prefer to trust what I have witnessed watching the games. The unprecedented run of phenomenal offensive form during the 10 game winning run, is probably the main statistic to influence the figures they selected....i.e we defended from the front, which is great by the way. I think you are right, the sample is too small and too selective. It has to cover a season to get a true reflection of every fixture completed to get an accurate analysis and that was impossible due to a mid season takeover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted May 8, 2020 Share Posted May 8, 2020 If full season is criteria then he can't be judged then as this season hasnt ended 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted May 8, 2020 Share Posted May 8, 2020 Quick question on the rules about judging Smith (and other managers) Am I right in understanding that the 35 games Smith was manager for us in the Championship is not enough to judge if his teams can defend in the Championship but the 28 games he's been manager for us in the Premier League is enough to judge on that his teams can't defend in the Premier League? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Okonokos Posted May 8, 2020 Share Posted May 8, 2020 (edited) 12 minutes ago, TRO said: I agree totally. I don't buy the example they presented, I prefer to trust what I have witnessed watching the games. The unprecedented run of phenomenal offensive form during the 10 game winning run, is probably the main statistic to influence the figures they selected....i.e we defended from the front, which is great by the way. I think you are right, the sample is too small and too selective. It has to cover a season to get a true reflection of every fixture completed to get an accurate analysis and that was impossible due to a mid season takeover. I wouldn't call that phenomenal offensive form. Norwich on 39 is closer to phenomenal. I'd say ours was very good but we were actually more impressive defensively. We looked so solid, had grit and determination to see games out. We didn't hammer everyone 5-0 at all. Edited May 8, 2020 by Okonokos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted May 8, 2020 Share Posted May 8, 2020 But 17 games in the championship can not be used to determine whether a Smith side can defend in the championship. Instead we must look at our defence in the strongest league in the world. If that isn’t enough then we must also look at Sheffield United and Wolves. The fact we are not as good as them will determine whether we are good enough for automatic promotion or not. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted May 8, 2020 Share Posted May 8, 2020 21 minutes ago, Zatman said: 2nd March - April 28th Coincidently when you didnt post as much So true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted May 8, 2020 Share Posted May 8, 2020 (edited) 13 minutes ago, sne said: Quick question on the rules about judging Smith (and other managers) Am I right in understanding that the 35 games Smith was manager for us in the Championship is not enough to judge if his teams can defend in the Championship but the 28 games he's been manager for us in the Premier League is enough to judge on that his teams can't defend in the Premier League? It’s worse than that. The 28 games in the Premier League is enough to judge we can’t defend in the Championship! Edited May 8, 2020 by Vive_La_Villa 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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