Israel, Palestine and Iran

[Jareth]

3 minutes ago, blandy said:

It’s all the channels. It’s an OFCOM code of practice requirement.

I know. So do the people criticising the BBC for it. There’s frustration from those quarters that they cannot pressure the BBC into using terminology that they want. 

[a-k]

5 hours ago, villa89 said:

Twitter isn't a very reliable source. I've no idea why people use it to get information on current affairs. You've no idea if what you're scrolling through is true. If you want the news go to reputable media websites. 

That's why I asked here, because I don't speak Arabic.

[DJBOB]

2 hours ago, OutByEaster? said:

i don't know - i'd assume they would, Palestinians would be happy to accommodate refugee Palestinians wouldn't they?

I don't know though - I'm not sure how the two parts work together, or how Israel considers them - I think they stopped the free movement of people between the two a while back, but I don't know how similar/complicated the situation is.

I can see why Egypt wouldn't want them, and i don't want to get caught up in the idea that they're just both 'Arab' so it should be okay- the UK would go nuts at the idea of taking a million Spaniards and we're both European. It just seems to me that if Israel wants to clear (and most likely appropriate) the North, kettle the South and then hope population decreases and they can eventually 'remove' Gaza  - I don't see why they wouldn't just offer the opportunity for a whole bunch of people to move to the other side of Palestine - it seems straightforward and would be much more palatable to a watching global audience with human rights concerns.

 

 

Yeah that's kind of the thorny question about Palestine. Freeing Palestine doesn't guarantee getting rid of Hamas, Hezbollah, etc.

And then relocating Palestinians is a game of refugee hot potato that no one wants to play.

[chrisp65]

Having a free and internationally recognised country of Palestine with occupied territories returned wouldn’t guarantee peace for Israel. But it would make it all a lot less morally confused and ambiguous. Any action against Israel could be rightly condemned and acted upon without this murky grey area of crime on both sides.

[sheepyvillian]

Sick of all the silly mind games and distracting techniques behind the using of the word "terrorist." Reminds me of Thatcher and how she was still referring to Mandela as a terrorist months before he was released from prison. 

Edited October 16, 2023 by sheepyvillian

[DJBOB]

1 hour ago, chrisp65 said:

Having a free and internationally recognised country of Palestine with occupied territories returned wouldn’t guarantee peace for Israel. But it would make it all a lot less morally confused and ambiguous. Any action against Israel could be rightly condemned and acted upon without this murky grey area of crime on both sides.

It would be nice.

Though I have my doubts. Iran and Hezbollah and whatever remnants of Hamas would be left over would simply just launch attacks from Palestine anyway.

[chrisp65]

3 minutes ago, DJBOB said:

It would be nice.

Though I have my doubts. Iran and Hezbollah and whatever remnants of Hamas would be left over would simply just launch attacks from Palestine anyway.

Yes, and we could all agree that bombing the shite out of Iran and Hezbollah positions and personnel wherever they were was perfectly ok.

 

[DJBOB]

10 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

Yes, and we could all agree that bombing the shite out of Iran and Hezbollah positions and personnel wherever they were was perfectly ok.

 

But those positions would be in Palestine . 
 
Shitty situation all around. 

[magnkarl]

53 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

Yes, and we could all agree that bombing the shite out of Iran and Hezbollah positions and personnel wherever they were was perfectly ok.

 

I’m not sure though. The movement and payment from Iran has a lot of people horribly confused. We’ve got politicians who were essentially in parliament whilst working for Iran/Hezbollah TV and judging from the crap outside synagogues and Jewish properties in this country many have a hard time with anything that could potentially be connected to the state of Israel.

Whenever this shitty situation flares up the vile hate and racism spikes all across Europe, led by people who thinks it’s okay to act like animals on both sides.

Wish we could just hit reset.

Iran is doing this all across the Middle East, yet they go so under the radar with most people that I think their hold is getting to the level which Russia had in our society.

Iran has essentially done with Hamas/Palestine what they’ve done with Syria/Assad, Lebanon/Hezbollah and Houthis/Yemen for years and years. Spreading murder and outright terrorism and specifically stopping peace deals and positive movements with bombs, rockets and jihad.

Benny would not be in power if Israel hadn’t been under the near constant threat from Iran and their militias, the strong man rhetoric doesn’t work for a country not constantly at war.

Edited October 16, 2023 by magnkarl

[chrisp65]

5 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

I’m not sure though. The movement and payment from Iran has a lot of people horribly confused. We’ve got politicians who were essentially in parliament whilst working for Iran/Hezbollah TV and judging from the crap outside synagogues and Jewish properties in this country many have a hard time with anything that could potentially be connected to the state of Israel.

Whenever this shitty situation flares up the vile hate and racism spikes all across Europe, led by people who thinks it’s okay to act like animals on both sides.

Wish we could just hit reset.

Iran is doing this all across the Middle East, yet they go so under the radar with most people that I think their hold is getting to the level which Russia had in our society.

Iran has essentially done with Hamas/Palestine what they’ve done with Syria/Assad, Lebanon/Hezbollah and Houthis/Yemen for years and years. Spreading murder and outright terrorism and specifically stopping peace deals and positive movements with bombs, rockets and jihad.

It’s not a one way street, and Israel can hit reset.

At the moment, the theft and seizure of land and people’s homes and basic human dignity means Israel can be viewed as being equally culpable. The cutting off of water supply to hospitals, to children. Bombing their self declared ‘safe routes’. It’s in the gutter with Iran at the moment. A fair internationally agreed arrangement with the Palestinians wouldn’t stop idiots and hate mongers being able to use whataboutism. It wouldn’t stop racism and violence but bloody hell you’ve got to start somewhere.

[OutByEaster?]

5 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

Judging from the crap outside synagogues and Jewish properties in this country many have a hard time with anything that could potentially be connected to the state of Israel.

i don't think there's anything wrong with having a hard time with anything connected to the state apparatus of Israel; it's government, the IDF and so on; it's a country run by evil people. 

Absolutely none of that excuses any kind of attack on Synagogues and Jewish schools in the UK - if you want to protest a nation, go do it at its embassy.

British Jews should be able to feel safe in the UK. We need to educate people better I think on the differences rather than the connections of, for example, a Synagogue in Golders Green to the far right ideology of Likud and its leaders - people need to understand the differences between Jewishness and the policies of Israel and indeed between different types of expression of Jewishness.

I can't claim as I understand a great deal about Jewish culture - a race that isn't necessarily a racial group, a faith with many different types and levels of faith, including those that are Jewish without faith, a culture that's been searching for safe roots for thousands of years - but I'm pretty sure that the bloke I used to work with from Barnet wouldn't want a child harmed in a million years - people of all types just tend to be people.

i think the attacks that have been happening on Jewish people in the UK are appalling.

But I don't think that should move us away from focusing on trying to prevent the coming genocide in Gaza - where another diverse group of innocent people are about to suffer hideously for the actions of a group that, in much the same way, probably doesn't reflect their views and feelings either.

 

[DJBOB]

12 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

It’s not a one way street, and Israel can hit reset.

At the moment, the theft and seizure of land and people’s homes and basic human dignity means Israel can be viewed as being equally culpable. The cutting off of water supply to hospitals, to children. Bombing their self declared ‘safe routes’. It’s in the gutter with Iran at the moment. A fair internationally agreed arrangement with the Palestinians wouldn’t stop idiots and hate mongers being able to use whataboutism. It wouldn’t stop racism and violence but bloody hell you’ve got to start somewhere.

I agree with you from a moral and ethical perspective.

But from a strategic perspective, recognizing Palestine with an international agreement doesn't stop Iran from continuing to meddle with an intent focus on Israel's destruction.

As @magnkarl points out, Iran has destabilized every surrounding country in their region. While Europe and the US afar yearn for an internationally agreed agreement with the Palestinians, it will be Israel that bears the brunt of the continued attacks.

You do have to start somewhere, but my understanding from talking to people is that freeing Palestine is the end goal for them when it's maybe just the starting point.

[magnkarl]

9 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

i don't think there's anything wrong with having a hard time with anything connected to the state apparatus of Israel; it's government, the IDF and so on; it's a country run by evil people. 

Absolutely none of that excuses any kind of attack on Synagogues and Jewish schools in the UK - if you want to protest a nation, go do it at its embassy.

British Jews should be able to feel safe in the UK. We need to educate people better I think on the differences rather than the connections of, for example, a Synagogue in Golders Green to the far right ideology of Likud and its leaders - people need to understand the differences between Jewishness and the policies of Israel and indeed between different types of expression of Jewishness.

I can't claim as I understand a great deal about Jewish culture - a race that isn't necessarily a racial group, a faith with many different types and levels of faith, including those that are Jewish without faith, a culture that's been searching for safe roots for thousands of years - but I'm pretty sure that the bloke I used to work with from Barnet wouldn't want a child harmed in a million years - people of all types just tend to be people.

i think the attacks that have been happening on Jewish people in the UK are appalling.

But I don't think that should move us away from focusing on trying to prevent the coming genocide in Gaza - where another diverse group of innocent people are about to suffer hideously for the actions of a group that, in much the same way, probably doesn't reflect their views and feelings either.

 

Perfectly agree.

Judging by the way this is going I don’t think it’ll end sadly. It feels and talks like a bigger war between the major players in the Middle East, with the Palestinian people being used as a chip by a country that operates on terror against a country who’s lost its sense of morals and connection to what brought them to Israel in the first place.

4 thousand years later and the place is still a rats nest of race/religion/war/sectarianism and a stage where wannabe world powers extend their influence by outright murdering others.

The generational trauma of the inhabitants of both Palestine and Israel keeps marching on, forever churning more and more people into a situation where everyone loses.

Edited October 16, 2023 by magnkarl

[OutByEaster?]

2 minutes ago, DJBOB said:

As @magnkarl points out, Iran has destabilized every surrounding country in their region. While Europe and the US afar yearn for an internationally agreed agreement with the Palestinians, it will be Israel that bears the brunt of the continued attacks.

I must have missed Iran bombing Iraq, Iran, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Palestine and Syria, propping up a number of murderous regimes in the region or destroying its own democracy in 1953 through a secret service coup.

I must also be confused about the 43 times the US has used it's veto at the UN to prevent an internationally agreed settlement for the Palestinians - perhaps something in the yearning got lost in translation.

I think if we're looking for influence in the region - there's a much bigger culprit than the Iranians!

[DJBOB]

2 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

I must have missed Iran bombing Iraq, Iran, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Palestine and Syria, propping up a number of murderous regimes in the region or destroying its own democracy in 1953 through a secret service coup.

I must also be confused about the 43 times the US has used it's veto at the UN to prevent an internationally agreed settlement for the Palestinians - perhaps something in the yearning got lost in translation.

I think if we're looking for influence in the region - there's a much bigger culprit than the Iranians!

All true too.

I just don't see a lot of realistic solutions.

 

[chrisp65]

24 minutes ago, DJBOB said:

I agree with you from a moral and ethical perspective.

But from a strategic perspective, recognizing Palestine with an international agreement doesn't stop Iran from continuing to meddle with an intent focus on Israel's destruction.

As @magnkarl points out, Iran has destabilized every surrounding country in their region. While Europe and the US afar yearn for an internationally agreed agreement with the Palestinians, it will be Israel that bears the brunt of the continued attacks.

You do have to start somewhere, but my understanding from talking to people is that freeing Palestine is the end goal for them when it's maybe just the starting point.

Shall we set up a scoreboard of who meddles the most.

We could even look in to some of the contributing reasons for how the zealots got hold of Iran. 

Two wrongs don’t make us right, if we want to be the world’s policeman we have to do the right thing. Or, we can all agree this conflict will roll on for eternity and we might as well sell bombs to at least one side. Or, we can turn a blind eye to ethnic cleansing.

[will87]

Looks like the next wave of terrorism is upon us in Europe then. A French teacher stabbed to death by a Chechen on Friday, a 70-year-old killed in Hartlepool yesterday and now two Swedish football fans have just been shot dead in Brussels.

[one_ian_taylor]

19 hours ago, a-k said:

Can someone verify?

 

My Arabic is pretty rusty, but the gist of the headlines in the picture:

"Live: The Palestinian Red Cross Hospital refuses Israeli [something something] and the United Nations warns that its buildings I. Gaza are not safe

Can't  see all of the Putin one

Is it possible to verify the aims of any Israeli [something] operation?

France (also?) raises its security [something] level after the killing of a teacher

The armed Israeli police [something] a BBC [something] in Tel Aviv"

If the writer  of the tweet is claiming that any of the headlines in the picture say anything about BBC reporters saying  Israeli hostages have been arrested, then that would appear to be nonsense

 

 

 

 

[magnkarl]

10 hours ago, OutByEaster? said:

I must have missed Iran bombing Iraq, Iran, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Palestine and Syria, propping up a number of murderous regimes in the region or destroying its own democracy in 1953 through a secret service coup.

I must also be confused about the 43 times the US has used it's veto at the UN to prevent an internationally agreed settlement for the Palestinians - perhaps something in the yearning got lost in translation.

I think if we're looking for influence in the region - there's a much bigger culprit than the Iranians!

Iran have bombed Iraq and Syria very recently(remember the US soldiers bombed in Iraq?), and through their many armed militias they are bombing many of the others regularly. It isn’t an unknown that Iran seeks to keep the ME unstable, not through precision strikes or air assets, but through barbaric Islamist groups who yearn to kill anything its told to by Iran.

The US is bad, but this point wasn’t about US. If we can’t call a spade a spade with Iran because people hate the US we’re in deep trouble.

[Rugeley Villa]

5 hours ago, one_ian_taylor said:

My Arabic is pretty rusty, but the gist of the headlines in the picture:

"Live: The Palestinian Red Cross Hospital refuses Israeli [something something] and the United Nations warns that its buildings I. Gaza are not safe

Can't  see all of the Putin one

Is it possible to verify the aims of any Israeli [something] operation?

France (also?) raises its security [something] level after the killing of a teacher

The armed Israeli police [something] a BBC [something] in Tel Aviv"

If the writer  of the tweet is claiming that any of the headlines in the picture say anything about BBC reporters saying  Israeli hostages have been arrested, then that would appear to be nonsense

 

 

 

 

Usually comes and goes, but yes looks like it’s reappearing again. Sweden were openly burning the Koran the other month so that’s why they were targeted no doubt. This situation in Palestine/Israel no doubt fuelling more nut jobs.