sne Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 Yeah it's been hours maybe even days since the US or their allies killes someone with a drone attack. What are they playing at? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straggler Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 8 hours ago, regular_john said: Israel is surrounded by nations full of people that long to see it, and all of its residents, conquered, defeated, and in many cases slaughtered. Let's not forget the Iranian statement that they 'kiss the hands' of the attackers of October 7th. The rape, murder, and kidnap of men, women, and children was literally celebrated at government level by a powerful sovereign nation. If Israel is not able to defend itself and does not have the support of powerful allies, every man, woman, and child within its borders is in grave danger. October 7th should serve as a chilling warning to the intentions of Hamas and their allies. The very phrase 'From the river to the sea', so mindlessly chanted by knowing and unknowing antisemites, demands the eradication of the Jewish population of the region. That is why the US so strongly supports Israel, as should we all. No. My support is conditional. One of my conditions is that you must not commit genocide or ethnic cleansing. Doesn't seem like a particularly controversial line in the sand to draw either. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 8 hours ago, regular_john said: The very phrase 'From the river to the sea', so mindlessly chanted by knowing and unknowing antisemites, demands the eradication of the Jewish population of the region. Netanyahu used that phrase last week. Mind you, he is probably contributing to the eradication of Israel, unknowingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted February 2 VT Supporter Share Posted February 2 The phrase doesn't inherently call for the destruction of Israel either, despite what those who would like to wipe Palestinians off the map (literally) say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 (edited) The phrase is dumb. It calls for one side to take all the land. I thought we were over that with the countless wars, feuds and killing now. Even if you look at historical sources or more recent history there was never a Palestinian state from the Jordan River to the sea. It's hogwash. Whoever chants it needs to grow up, get his or her Bedouin\Jewish scarf (kiffiyeh, appropriated by Arabs in the revolt in the 1930's) off and tell their organisations to start talking rather than mindlessly wanting to annihilate the other side. Edited February 2 by magnkarl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted February 2 Moderator Share Posted February 2 59 minutes ago, magnkarl said: The phrase is dumb. It calls for one side to take all the land. I thought we were over that with the countless wars, feuds and killing now. Neither side is over that, and one side is well on the way to making it a reality by annihilating the other. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post regular_john Posted February 2 Popular Post Share Posted February 2 4 hours ago, Straggler said: No. My support is conditional. One of my conditions is that you must not commit genocide or ethnic cleansing. Doesn't seem like a particularly controversial line in the sand to draw either. Please don't take this the wrong way as I am not wishing to sound rude, but this accusation of genocide being pedalled against Israel is absolute nonsense and is, in my opinion, a reflection of: 1. A lack of understanding of the nature of the current conflict 2. A lack of understanding of the history of the conflict And 3. An expression of naivety regarding the extent to which pro-Hamas and Islamist propaganda has infiltrated the conversation around this conflict Israel are not committing genocide in Gaza. They are fighting a justified war against a terrorist organisation that was responsible for the most heinous slaughter of Jewish people since the days of WW2. Hamas needs to be completely and totally eradicated in it's entirety. Unfortunately, Hamas are also cowards who have constructed all of their bases and tunnels around, within, or directly underneath civilian infrastructure including schools and hospitals. They are using the population of Gaza as human shields, which inevitably (and tragically) leads to huge loss of civilian life if Israel make any concerted military effort against them. If Israel fails to take appropriate military action, Hamas will simply continue the slaughter, as they have promised to do. And then when said civilians die, which is solely the fault of Hamas, the world blames Israel for committing genocide. Ludicrous. Is Israel were intent on genocide, they could have done so at any point in the last several decades, such is the imbalance in military power between Israel and Palestine. That the population of Gaza has doubled since 2000 indicates that this is either the most inept attempt at genocide ever, or that there is and never has been a genocide, and cries to the contrary are a consequence of yet more Islamist propaganda. 1 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omariqy Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 15 minutes ago, regular_john said: Please don't take this the wrong way as I am not wishing to sound rude, but this accusation of genocide being pedalled against Israel is absolute nonsense and is, in my opinion, a reflection of: 1. A lack of understanding of the nature of the current conflict 2. A lack of understanding of the history of the conflict And 3. An expression of naivety regarding the extent to which pro-Hamas and Islamist propaganda has infiltrated the conversation around this conflict Israel are not committing genocide in Gaza. They are fighting a justified war against a terrorist organisation that was responsible for the most heinous slaughter of Jewish people since the days of WW2. Hamas needs to be completely and totally eradicated in it's entirety. Unfortunately, Hamas are also cowards who have constructed all of their bases and tunnels around, within, or directly underneath civilian infrastructure including schools and hospitals. They are using the population of Gaza as human shields, which inevitably (and tragically) leads to huge loss of civilian life if Israel make any concerted military effort against them. If Israel fails to take appropriate military action, Hamas will simply continue the slaughter, as they have promised to do. And then when said civilians die, which is solely the fault of Hamas, the world blames Israel for committing genocide. Ludicrous. Is Israel were intent on genocide, they could have done so at any point in the last several decades, such is the imbalance in military power between Israel and Palestine. That the population of Gaza has doubled since 2000 indicates that this is either the most inept attempt at genocide ever, or that there is and never has been a genocide, and cries to the contrary are a consequence of yet more Islamist propaganda. This actually made me Lol 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regular_john Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 4 minutes ago, omariqy said: This actually made me Lol An intelligent, thought provoking response. LOL. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omariqy Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 Shit in shit out 2 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJBOB Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 7 hours ago, desensitized43 said: Keep waking up and checking to see if the US have responded to the Iranian drone strike yet. They just look ridiculous at the minute. “We’re going to respond” “we’ve decided our response”…wait, leak what you plan to do, talk some more shit…nothing. In the meantime all the targets you might have struck have been emptied of all the high value targets making anything you might do pretty much pointless. 7 hours ago, sne said: Yeah it's been hours maybe even days since the US or their allies killes someone with a drone attack. What are they playing at? There's a theory floating around that Iran, having unleashed its proxies, are now a bit anxious that the frankenstein they've created is going a bit too far and are back channeling mea culpas. That we haven't seen the big boom from the US is just another layer of their reluctance to escalate beyond arms shipments, deterrence strikes, and largely resource-aimed (fuel/arms/weapons sites) attacks. While the US might be all gaga to keep supplying arms, all of their actions around involvement have largely been to contain the conflict in the region to avoid what seems to be inevitable escalation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regular_john Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 1 hour ago, omariqy said: Shit in shit out If there's anything I've said that's incorrect (I don't think there is), I'd be more than happy to engage in an actual adult conversation about it. When you feel capable of that, crack on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted February 2 VT Supporter Share Posted February 2 Meanwhile in reality Quote More than 800 serving officials in the US and Europe have signed a statement warning that their own governments' policies on the Israel-Gaza war could amount to "grave violations of international law". The "transatlantic statement", a copy of which was passed to the BBC, says their administrations risk being complicit in "one of the worst human catastrophes of this century" but that their expert advice has been sidelined. It is the latest sign of significant levels of dissent within the governments of some of Israel's key Western allies. One signatory to the statement, a US government official with more than 25 years' national security experience, told the BBC of the "continued dismissal" of their concerns. "The voices of those who understand the region and the dynamics were not listened to," said the official. "What's really different here is we're not failing to prevent something, we're actively complicit. That is fundamentally different from any other situation I can recall," added the official, who spoke on condition of anonymity. The statement is signed by civil servants from the US, the EU and 11 European countries including the UK, France and Germany. It says Israel has shown "no boundaries" in its military operations in Gaza, "which has resulted in tens of thousands of preventable civilian deaths; and… the deliberate blocking of aid… putting thousands of civilians at risk of starvation and slow death." "There is a plausible risk that our governments' policies are contributing to grave violations of international law, war crimes and even ethnic cleansing or genocide," it said. ... The Beeb It's so evidently a heinous crime even the faceless civil servants across Western nations are pressing the alarm button. But don't worry, there's not a price not worth paying for ensuring Israel gets what it wants. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post chrisp65 Posted February 2 Popular Post Share Posted February 2 19 minutes ago, regular_john said: If there's anything I've said that's incorrect (I don't think there is), I'd be more than happy to engage in an actual adult conversation about it. When you feel capable of that, crack on. You told people their views were none-sense and naive, then moaned people poked back. Your statements were themselves a little naive. Were you genuinely expecting Hamas to line up in rectangular formation on the battlefield with red tunics on? A population has been kettled in to too little space, this space has been condensed further, then the Israeli identified safe zones for civilians have been bombed. We’ve all seen the verified ITV footage of people with a white flag murdered by the IDF. Your statement was so one sided I wasn’t going to bother responding. Israel boasts an advanced military machine with precision munitions, then flattens 50% of all buildings and 3 months later is still going street to street bombing and murdering civilians. Israel have ‘discovered’ tunnel networks they helped create. What Hamas did was disgusting annd absolutely needs Hamas to be punished, and if every last man with a gun was shot in the head there would be not much of a problem. They should be taken out as a viable force. But to respond in the way Israel has, is disgusting, obscene. It’s murder on an industrial scale. Don’t try and blame 19,000 orphans on anyone but the Israeli government, its military, its apologists, and its financial backers. They absolutely have the blood of thousands of children and grandmothers on their hands. Truth is, Hamas and the IDF need each other, they’re in each others business model. 8 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omariqy Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 2 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: You told people their views were none-sense and naive, then moaned people poked back. Your statements were themselves a little naive. Were you genuinely expecting Hamas to line up in rectangular formation on the battlefield with red tunics on? A population has been kettled in to too little space, this space has been condensed further, then the Israeli identified safe zones for civilians have been bombed. We’ve all seen the verified ITV footage of people with a white flag murdered by the IDF. Your statement was so one sided I wasn’t going to bother responding. Israel boasts an advanced military machine with precision munitions, then flattens 50% of all buildings and 3 months later is still going street to street bombing and murdering civilians. Israel have ‘discovered’ tunnel networks they helped create. What Hamas did was disgusting annd absolutely needs Hamas to be punished, and if every last man with a gun was shot in the head there would be not much of a problem. They should be taken out as a viable force. But to respond in the way Israel has, is disgusting, obscene. It’s murder on an industrial scale. Don’t try and blame 19,000 orphans on anyone but the Israeli government, its military, its apologists, and its financial backers. They absolutely have the blood of thousands of children and grandmothers on their hands. Truth is, Hamas and the IDF need each other, they’re in each others business model. You’re a better man than me 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 (edited) 2 hours ago, regular_john said: Israel are not committing genocide in Gaza. They are fighting a justified war against a terrorist organisation that was responsible for the most heinous slaughter of Jewish people since the days of WW2. Hamas needs to be completely and totally eradicated in it's entirety. This isn't really right either though. I don't think it's even in top 5. The etnic cleansing of Jews from pretty much all arab states since WW2 is much, much worse in terms of numbers, this happened as late as the 60's and 70's in many places. 600.000 Jews were killed, forcibly moved and had their properties seized by different Arab countries. Hamas did something horrible, but at the same time it wasn't the worst slaughter of Jews since WW2. The Kingdom of Iraq holds that title, Marrocco, Libya, Yemen, Syria and Egypt all fight about second place. I'm Jewish, and I find the overegging from both sides in this conflict beyond measure. The fact that both sides show live pictures of 'theirs' killed by the opposite side and have enormous propaganda machines going makes a lot of people feel like this is the worst thing since WW2. Gaza since Oct 7th isn't one day in the Dresden bombings in WW2, and Oct 7th isn't even one hour of one day of Iraq's horrible ethnic cleansing of Jews in 1952. Both sides' supporters need to stop the extremely volatile childish language. The term genocide isn't right, neither is saying things like 'the worst since ww2!'. They're Hamas, Likud, IDF, and the Muslim Brotherhood talking points. The Western left is lapping up one narrative and the right the other. Edited February 2 by magnkarl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 I agree, it's not genocide, it's ethnic cleansing. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straggler Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 3 hours ago, regular_john said: Please don't take this the wrong way as I am not wishing to sound rude, but this accusation of genocide being pedalled against Israel is absolute nonsense and is, in my opinion, a reflection of: 1. A lack of understanding of the nature of the current conflict 2. A lack of understanding of the history of the conflict And 3. An expression of naivety regarding the extent to which pro-Hamas and Islamist propaganda has infiltrated the conversation around this conflict Israel are not committing genocide in Gaza. They are fighting a justified war against a terrorist organisation that was responsible for the most heinous slaughter of Jewish people since the days of WW2. Hamas needs to be completely and totally eradicated in it's entirety. Unfortunately, Hamas are also cowards who have constructed all of their bases and tunnels around, within, or directly underneath civilian infrastructure including schools and hospitals. They are using the population of Gaza as human shields, which inevitably (and tragically) leads to huge loss of civilian life if Israel make any concerted military effort against them. If Israel fails to take appropriate military action, Hamas will simply continue the slaughter, as they have promised to do. And then when said civilians die, which is solely the fault of Hamas, the world blames Israel for committing genocide. Ludicrous. Is Israel were intent on genocide, they could have done so at any point in the last several decades, such is the imbalance in military power between Israel and Palestine. That the population of Gaza has doubled since 2000 indicates that this is either the most inept attempt at genocide ever, or that there is and never has been a genocide, and cries to the contrary are a consequence of yet more Islamist propaganda. Your post is a very literal justification of genocide. Your lack of self awareness is quite startling in a post denying that it is happening. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panto_Villan Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 5 hours ago, regular_john said: Please don't take this the wrong way as I am not wishing to sound rude, but this accusation of genocide being pedalled against Israel is absolute nonsense and is, in my opinion, a reflection of: 1. A lack of understanding of the nature of the current conflict 2. A lack of understanding of the history of the conflict And 3. An expression of naivety regarding the extent to which pro-Hamas and Islamist propaganda has infiltrated the conversation around this conflict Israel are not committing genocide in Gaza. They are fighting a justified war against a terrorist organisation that was responsible for the most heinous slaughter of Jewish people since the days of WW2. Hamas needs to be completely and totally eradicated in it's entirety. Unfortunately, Hamas are also cowards who have constructed all of their bases and tunnels around, within, or directly underneath civilian infrastructure including schools and hospitals. They are using the population of Gaza as human shields, which inevitably (and tragically) leads to huge loss of civilian life if Israel make any concerted military effort against them. If Israel fails to take appropriate military action, Hamas will simply continue the slaughter, as they have promised to do. And then when said civilians die, which is solely the fault of Hamas, the world blames Israel for committing genocide. Ludicrous. Is Israel were intent on genocide, they could have done so at any point in the last several decades, such is the imbalance in military power between Israel and Palestine. That the population of Gaza has doubled since 2000 indicates that this is either the most inept attempt at genocide ever, or that there is and never has been a genocide, and cries to the contrary are a consequence of yet more Islamist propaganda. Yes, you’re right that anyone referring to what’s happening in Gaza as “genocide” either doesn’t know the definition of the word or is exaggerating to push their agenda. But you still have to accept the Israelis are committing some serious war crimes, right? Numerous countries that back Israel called out their blockade of food and medical supplies at the border right at the start of the war, for example, but that’s still happening. As was said at the time, it’s a pretty clear-cut war crime with no military justification - it’s not the men with the guns who starve if there’s not enough food to go round. Why not let in enough food to feed everyone? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colhint Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 I would guess that a l large amount of that good a long with medical aid and fuel goes straight to Hammas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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