Genie Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 What’s the story with the US backing Isreal so hard? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 Just now, Genie said: What’s the story with the US backing Isreal so hard? I wonder that too. I've assumed they back them because if they didn't then Israel is over. You'd have thought nuclear weapons would protect them but given how close their neighbours/enemies are, I take it nukes would be pointless. Whatever the US is doing for Israel, and for whatever reason, then the time has come to press them publicly on their denial of a Palestinian state. I assume if we are talking about this via David Cameron, then that is in effect what the yanks are saying too... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Dogg Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 13 minutes ago, meregreen said: I doubt that. When Israel fights, it’s in the knowledge that if they lose just once, their country will cease to exist. That would tend to engender a hard nosed attitude to any perceived threat. Because it has been that way since they came into existence, that is how they have always been. If they did not have unequivocal support their entire political history would be different. You might argue that such an approach could never have worked given their neighbours. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Dogg Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 7 minutes ago, Genie said: What’s the story with the US backing Isreal so hard? The US has the biggest Jewish population after Israel. It's that plus it helps them strategically. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted January 31 VT Supporter Share Posted January 31 3 minutes ago, Genie said: What’s the story with the US backing Isreal so hard? Combination of things. Israel is a westernised nation in the Middle East. It represents a westernised power in the region that weighs against the the other interests. The US was always going to support having a pointedly similar ally in a strategically important region. There's also the 'higher' things like shared values that play into things, but which are probably less important. There's also things like generalised US support for self determination derived from their own origin story (but that opens up very troubling questions when that comes up against the fact that the land you want isn't yours...), biblical shit (a decent chunk of US Christians believe Israel is key to Christian prophecy), US having a very significant percentage of the globe's Jewish people, a large number of which are Zionist and who are generally wealthier and more able to influence politics. But generally it's basically support for a 'western democracy' in a region that is important strategically and exists in a state of chaos caused by the fallout of WW1. The US likes having a powerful state with similar values to its own as an ally to pull the region towards US interests, balancing against other powers and other influences. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panto_Villan Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 US support for Israel now is much more split along party lines than it has been in the past. Republicans are pro-Israel, and the more extreme Republicans will support literally anything that Israel wants to do. Democrats tend to be more skeptical of Israel. It used to be bipartisan but Democratic support has steadily eroded over the past couple of decades. If it wasn't an election year, and the Hamas attack had been less successful (like if it had killed mostly soldiers) then the US backing of Israel may have been a lot more tepid given there's a Democrat as President. If Trump wins the next election there's basically zero chance the US will try and nudge Israel towards supporting peace. If the Democrats win, you might actually see the US getting a bit tougher on them. They'd definitely listen to US threats of cutting military aid, but the problem is that if it happens near an election then Israel may well just try and stick it out in the hope that the Republicans would win and just reverse it (i.e. "the Putin in Ukraine" gambit). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 Israel has a fundamental right to exist. Their enemies want to exterminate them. It makes nuance and detail quite tricky when large sections of the voting public don’t really do nuance and detail. The same flips the other way around, Palestine has a clear right to exist and be recognised as a state. But the western voting public don’t have the back story, and the Palestine argument is somewhat hampered by some awful PR and optics and we ‘the west’ have learnt the hard way how hard it is to get a people on the road to enlightened liberal democracy. Without a tumultuous effort any nascent Palestinian state is going to be influenced by the bad guys from the region and so potentially become a threat to Israel and the Mediterranean. It’s an absolute bugger of a problem. But none of the above excuses genocide. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 (edited) US policy is also (still) affected by the fact that they had a State Department which would essentially slow down, stop and hamper any attempt of trying to rescue Jews during WW2. FDR and his people knew about the camps in Poland for a whole year before even setting up a directorate to finally get diplomats into Switzerland, Hungary and Sweden to get Jews out with fake papers. Much of it was held up by Breckenridge Long who had connections to White Power circles, and FDR didn't really do anything about him before he knew that at lest 4.5 million Jews had been murdered in Poland alone and pressure was put on him by both his wife, friends and social circles. If the US backed out now and Iran\Hezbollah\Hamas\Qatar and whoever else did what they tried to start in 1948 they'd have an eternal blame put on them for not doing enough again. They're effed if they do, effed if they don't. Edited February 1 by magnkarl 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJBOB Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 4 hours ago, Panto_Villan said: US support for Israel now is much more split along party lines than it has been in the past. Republicans are pro-Israel, and the more extreme Republicans will support literally anything that Israel wants to do. Democrats tend to be more skeptical of Israel. It used to be bipartisan but Democratic support has steadily eroded over the past couple of decades. If it wasn't an election year, and the Hamas attack had been less successful (like if it had killed mostly soldiers) then the US backing of Israel may have been a lot more tepid given there's a Democrat as President. If Trump wins the next election there's basically zero chance the US will try and nudge Israel towards supporting peace. If the Democrats win, you might actually see the US getting a bit tougher on them. They'd definitely listen to US threats of cutting military aid, but the problem is that if it happens near an election then Israel may well just try and stick it out in the hope that the Republicans would win and just reverse it (i.e. "the Putin in Ukraine" gambit). In addition, you even have an additional strain of Tucker Carlson/Ron Paul disciple/Elon-ish conglomerate of "it's not our problem" as well. While US support for Israel exists at the top brass for several strategical reasons, it's much more fragmented in the public opinion. An additional ugly part of it is the heavy anti-semitic strains of the loud right wing part of the same conglomerate. So a weird case of ultra-progressives being anti-Israel and then the extreme right wing also being anti-Israel for different (and same) reasons. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 Wasn’t really sure where to put this, but the MP appears to have linked it to his pro Israeli views. BBC Quote Mr Freer, who has pro-Israel views and represents a heavily Jewish constituency, told the paper "I don't think we can divorce" antisemitism from the intimidation To state the obvious, violence and intimidation are absolutely not acceptable and they need to catch and convict people. What I then think odd, is following an arson attack, he’s decided he can’t put himself or his family through the risk anymore, so he’s resigning… at some point 6 or 8 months off in the future. Am I being super cynical? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted February 1 Moderator Share Posted February 1 2 hours ago, chrisp65 said: Wasn’t really sure where to put this, but the MP appears to have linked it to his pro Israeli views. BBC To state the obvious, violence and intimidation are absolutely not acceptable and they need to catch and convict people. What I then think odd, is following an arson attack, he’s decided he can’t put himself or his family through the risk anymore, so he’s resigning… at some point 6 or 8 months off in the future. Am I being super cynical? Surely it would only be AS if he was actually Jewish, it’s more likely to be an AC attack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 (edited) 2 hours ago, chrisp65 said: Wasn’t really sure where to put this, but the MP appears to have linked it to his pro Israeli views. BBC To state the obvious, violence and intimidation are absolutely not acceptable and they need to catch and convict people. What I then think odd, is following an arson attack, he’s decided he can’t put himself or his family through the risk anymore, so he’s resigning… at some point 6 or 8 months off in the future. Am I being super cynical? As you say, threats and intimidation are A Very Bad Thing, and no MP of any flavour should have to deal with what he has had to deal with. But no, cynicism is probably appropriate - he's currently expected to get around 28% of the vote at the next election, behind both the Labour AND Lib Dem candidates. I'd probably think that it was worth "taking the risk" for the next nine months or so of salary, and then choosing to not lose an election. Edited February 1 by ml1dch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJBOB Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 Biden expected to give an executive order sanctioning violence against Palestinians in the West Bank. A slap on the wrist given the crimes committed but not the first signals of support erosion. This is about the usual timeframe of evaporation of public support given Israeli actions. Would only expect continued erosion of support here. A very thin tightrope now for the US given the increasing volatility of drone attacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 Quote Huge Israeli Conference in Jerusalem Plots Squatter-Settlements in Gaza once it is Ethnically Cleansed The Israeli newspaper Arab 48 reports that on Sunday evening 12 Israeli cabinet members and 15 members of Parliament (the Knesset) attended a conference in Jerusalem on the recolonization of the Gaza Strip by Israeli squatter-settlers. They were greeted by shouts of “Expel the Palestinians and settle the land in its length and breadth.” The attendees and speakers clearly were not impressed by the International Court of Justice’s preliminary injunction against Israel last Friday demanding that it cease genocidal acts and policies. The conference was organized by squatter organizations to promote settlements on Palestinian land in Gaza after the end of the current war, which has killed over 26,000 people and damaged or destroyed most of Gaza’s buildings and dwellings. The conference was inaugurated by the chief of the Shomron regional council of settlements, Yossi Dagan. He said, “The Oslo Accords are dead. We are returning to Gush Katif.” Dagan continued, “The thousands who came here this evening, among them 12 cabinet ministers in the government (from the Likud and Religious Zionist Parties), and more than 15 members of the Knesset, came to commemorate an important event in the process of a comprehensive reform of the Israeli state.” Attendees waved a placard with the slogan, “Only transfer will bring peace.” “Transfer” means the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians. The plan broached at the conference involves setting up settlement nucleii in the Gaza Strip called “yeshi” — a Hebrew acronym for “The United Tribes of Israel.” One nucleus would be set up on the outskirts of Beit Hanoun in the north of the Gaza Strip, in addition to another, “Maoz,” on the southern shore. A third would be established at Khan Younis. At Rafah in the south there would be a squatter settlement for Ultra-Orthodox Jews (Haredim). The organizers distributed orange ribbons to the attendees as a remembrance of the settlements of Gush Katif. Then the Minister of National Security, Itamar Ben-Gvir, took the stage. He began his career in the Kahanaist terror group Kach. The attendees, on seeing him, began shouting “transfer, transfer.” He replied, “They are right. They [the Palestinians] must be encouraged to leave voluntarily.” At that point some members of the security forces began pulling down posters calling for the expulsion of the Palestinians. https://www.juancole.com/2024/01/conference-settlements-ethnically.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 2 hours ago, DJBOB said: Biden expected to give an executive order sanctioning violence against Palestinians in the West Bank. A slap on the wrist given the crimes committed but not the first signals of support erosion. This is about the usual timeframe of evaporation of public support given Israeli actions. Would only expect continued erosion of support here. A very thin tightrope now for the US given the increasing volatility of drone attacks. As of last week it was something like 370 Palestinians in the West Bank killed by settlers and the IDF since Oct 7. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 3 minutes ago, sne said: As of last week it was something like 370 Palestinians in the West Bank killed by settlers and the IDF since Oct 7. Well we’ll obviously have to look in to that in the fullness of time when we have more context and corroboration. You wouldn’t want to jump to any action because of an allegation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 Just now, chrisp65 said: Well we’ll obviously have to look in to that in the fullness of time when we have more context and corroboration. You wouldn’t want to jump to any action because of an allegation. Could be aliens. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panto_Villan Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 On 29/01/2024 at 21:42, magnkarl said: A big boom for some of the weaker proxies maybe? Hizbollah in Iraq and the IRG in Syria seem prime targets. You were bang on the money, it seems! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regular_john Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 (edited) On 31/01/2024 at 09:49, Genie said: What’s the story with the US backing Isreal so hard? Israel is surrounded by nations full of people that long to see it, and all of its residents, conquered, defeated, and in many cases slaughtered. Let's not forget the Iranian statement that they 'kiss the hands' of the attackers of October 7th. The rape, murder, and kidnap of men, women, and children was literally celebrated at government level by a powerful sovereign nation. If Israel is not able to defend itself and does not have the support of powerful allies, every man, woman, and child within its borders is in grave danger. October 7th should serve as a chilling warning to the intentions of Hamas and their allies. The very phrase 'From the river to the sea', so mindlessly chanted by knowing and unknowing antisemites, demands the eradication of the Jewish population of the region. That is why the US so strongly supports Israel, as should we all. Edited February 1 by regular_john 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desensitized43 Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 Keep waking up and checking to see if the US have responded to the Iranian drone strike yet. They just look ridiculous at the minute. “We’re going to respond” “we’ve decided our response”…wait, leak what you plan to do, talk some more shit…nothing. In the meantime all the targets you might have struck have been emptied of all the high value targets making anything you might do pretty much pointless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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