Israel, Palestine and Iran

[Thug]

@LondonLax @Tumblerseven

 

Hamas official interview confirmed the offer.

@LondonLax I hope you see I was not posturing any particular framing.  However. Having read your previous comments I am happy that your posts have not been biased and your comment was one of genuine concern. so I shall just leave it there.
 

you may argue that you don’t believe them.

But not even willing to trade 1 hour of ceasefire to test it out?

Really?

[DJBOB]

Looks like the Israeli offensive will begin soon.

Probably going to be unprecedented in terms of urban warfare. Ukraine/USA will have a lot of lessons learned from both the initial offensive against Kyiv and Mariupol. In some ways, Mosul and Fallujah as well, but the modern advent of drone warfare will probably see nothing like this for a long time.

But Hamas will surely have a lot of intel from their Iranian/Syrian/IS/Russian counterparts and they have the intimate advantage of their home turf. For the martyrs and true believers, this is what Hamas wants and for as much as anyone can believe, Israel has been hesitant to follow along this trap because their inherit advantages count for little in door to door, tunnel combat. Hamas probably believes they can keep at this long enough for Israel and allies to give up hope while Iran can use this as a useful proxy to attack other areas of the region.

Only wild card is how much will SA, Qatar, and the other countries allow before trying to step in as peace negotiators. None of them want further escalation for various reasons and there will be blowback on them (refugees and other elements operating within their region).

[Panto_Villan]

1 hour ago, Thug said:

@LondonLax @Tumblerseven

 

Hamas official interview confirmed the offer.

@LondonLax I hope you see I was not posturing any particular framing.  However. Having read your previous comments I am happy that your posts have not been biased and your comment was one of genuine concern. so I shall just leave it there.
 

you may argue that you don’t believe them.

But not even willing to trade 1 hour of ceasefire to test it out?

Really?

Hmm. Saying “Hamas offered to release the hostages and Israel said no” without mentioning the preconditions is technically true, but I’d say it was still framed in a misleading way. You made it sound like they were just willing to let them go.

Obviously, you can debate whether it’s reasonable to expect Israel to trade 200 hostages for what was effectively an end to the war shortly after Hamas killed 1,200 Israelis (the offer was made quite early in the war), but imo you definitely need to mention it either way.

Edited October 25, 2023 by Panto_Villan

[Tumblerseven]

@VILLAMARV  i dont think you are being honest i think you playing the game. If anyone interested i suggest to read that conversation. I would agree that you butchered that MLK quote extremely and i think you butchered it in that way because you wanted to support the idea of justification and calling the terrorist attack a riot or minimize it. For you to say that im quoting you out of context is dishonest because i quoted you before this exchange with your full quote and statements. I wanted to show what my rationalization is so i took in my opinion problematic parts and wanted to explain my thinking. I think if you read the whole conversation my rationalization makes even better sense.

 

Edited October 25, 2023 by Tumblerseven

[bannedfromHandV]

I guess the big worry is this extends into an all out war of religion, at the moment it’s based largely on territory with a subtext of the two rival religions. If Israel do commence a ground invasion the numbers of dead Palestinians will be horrifyingly high, it will almost certain be tantamount to ethnic cleansing and if that spurs on the wider Muslim community both within the Middle East and beyond it could become highly volatile, not just for Israel but perhaps also for the likes of Saudi Arabia who just want things to quieten down so they can continue making obscene amounts of money.

Unless Hamas transfer all the remaining hostages back to Israel now and Israel agree to cease hostilities there’s just no end in sight on this. Israel have more than made their point in terms of retaliation.

[a-k]

23 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said:

I guess the big worry is this extends into an all out war of religion, at the moment it’s based largely on territory with a subtext of the two rival religions. If Israel do commence a ground invasion the numbers of dead Palestinians will be horrifyingly high, it will almost certain be tantamount to ethnic cleansing and if that spurs on the wider Muslim community both within the Middle East and beyond it could become highly volatile, not just for Israel but perhaps also for the likes of Saudi Arabia who just want things to quieten down so they can continue making obscene amounts of money.

Unless Hamas transfer all the remaining hostages back to Israel now and Israel agree to cease hostilities there’s just no end in sight on this. Israel have more than made their point in terms of retaliation.

Actually, this has nothing to do with religion. Hamas do not represent the average Muslim and Israelis are typically more secular than the average person in the UK.

[chrisp65]

Where’s momo gone with his claim the flag had been banned in the UK?

[Tumblerseven]

3 hours ago, Thug said:

They know where they are.

Hamas have offered to release them.

The Israeli government have refused this offer.

The release of the hostages is the polar opposite of what they want.  They are desperate for the hostages to die in captivity so that they can use that as an excuse to continue the bombardment.

stick the posters up on the Israeli embassy wall where they can be seen by the people that can actually bring them home.

These videos you posting is not even close to the framing you wrote. I think you lied when you said that this framing was from a video.

Are you just going to pretend that you provided videos with the framing?

Oh and the first NBC video 1:29 directly shows the criticism of your insane dishonest framing.

Edited October 25, 2023 by Tumblerseven

[bannedfromHandV]

7 minutes ago, a-k said:

Actually, this has nothing to do with religion. Hamas do not represent the average Muslim and Israelis are typically more secular than the average person in the UK.

I understand Hamas do not represent Muslims but the wider Palestinian population might, in time, at least to some degree. I’m not an expert, just my opinion based on what little I know 

[Thug]

32 minutes ago, Panto_Villan said:

Hmm. Saying “Hamas offered to release the hostages and Israel said no” without mentioning the preconditions is technically true, but I’d say it was still framed in a misleading way. You made it sound like they were just willing to let them go.

Obviously, you can debate whether it’s reasonable to expect Israel to trade 200 hostages for what was effectively an end to the war shortly after Hamas killed 1,200 Israelis (the offer was made quite early in the war), but imo you definitely need to mention it either way.

No I didn’t say that they were just willing to let them go.  I said Israel are not/were not/and will not be particularly interested in getting them back because they are more interested in a different objective.   Accusing me of bullshit sentiments doesn’t change that (not by you btw).  By Israel I mean their government.
 

Now before @Tumblerseven tries to rally villatalk against me again for I don’t even know what, let me be clear.

These accusations are also coming from Jewish people from within Israel - and in fact are the loudest voices making these accusations. 
 

Also let me be quite frank here, I don’t ‘need’ to do anything any more than @Awol ‘needs’  to answer my question about what the only civilised response to the blockade of water to Gaza is.  Any more than @Tumblerseven ‘needs’ to retract his statement that not everyone is entitled to governing their own country.  Or any of them ‘need’ to condemn the war crimes being committed by Israel.

Im quite happy to do the appropriate condemning off of my own back.  And if I wish to condemn the Israeli government for refusing to negotiate the release of its citizens, then I’m absolutely entitled to do so.  I already condemned Hamas for taking them - before @Tumblerseven gets too excited.  Feel free to search my posts with regards to my feelings about the terror attacks that kicked all this shit off.

[VILLAMARV]

51 minutes ago, Tumblerseven said:

@VILLAMARV  i dont think you are being honest i think you playing the game. If anyone interested i suggest to read that conversation. I would agree that you butchered that MLK quote extremely and i think you butchered it in that way because you wanted to support the idea of justification and calling the terrorist attack a riot or minimize it. For you to say that im quoting you out of context is dishonest because i quoted you before this exchange with your full quote and statements. I wanted to show what my rationalization is so i took in my opinion problematic parts and wanted to explain my thinking. I think if you read the whole conversation my rationalization makes even better sense.

Cool.

[chrisp65]

Counting the kids

Quote

Sources and Notes

Addameer: Prisoner’s Rights and Support Group, B’Tselem: the Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories, Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Jerusalem Media and Communications Center, LAW: the Palestinian Society for the Protection of Human Rights and the Environment, Palestinian Center for Human Rights, Palestinian State Information Service. Early years data compile

Graphic of each year since 2000

 

[Thug]

10 minutes ago, Tumblerseven said:

These videos you posting is not even close to the framing you wrote. I think you lied when you said that this framing was from a video.

Are you just going to pretend that you provided videos with the framing?

Oh and the first NBC video 1:29 directly shows the criticism of your insane dishonest framing.

Look man, in my opinion none of your posts are balanced.  They are blinkered, prejudiced and one sided.

The whole point of debate is to try to change someone mind - even a little.

You’re clearly on some different mission, and I find you tiresome.  I feel everything you say is to try to trap or provoke me, and you’ve already tried the typical methods of rallying everyone around to gang up on me - much like what I’ve seen in the media already.

I’m not going to directly engage you anymore because of this.  I believe your opinions are deeply rooted and completely prejudiced.  I find your lack of empathy towards people’s suffering (other than those you align with) to be deeply disturbing, and I feel that the more I engage you, the more chance I give you to spout your nonsense.

I don’t want any pain or suffering to anyone, Jewish people included.  I want de-escalation, all hostages to return home and above all I want peace.  I want Israel to be safe and to prosper, along with all its neighbours.  I want them to trade, and I want them to live happily.

So I shall leave it at that with you.  Whether you can bring it upon yourself to agree with any of that, quite frankly I don’t care any more.

UTV.

 

 

[Panto_Villan]

4 hours ago, Thug said:

They know where they are.

Hamas have offered to release them.

The Israeli government have refused this offer.

The release of the hostages is the polar opposite of what they want.  They are desperate for the hostages to die in captivity so that they can use that as an excuse to continue the bombardment.

stick the posters up on the Israeli embassy wall where they can be seen by the people that can actually bring them home.

I’ve quoted the post I was talking about.

For this not to be a misleading statement it’s necessary to mention that Hamas made an offer Israel was never realistically going to accept - otherwise it absolutely does read like you’re saying Hamas tried to give the hostages back, but Israel refused to take them back so they could instead kill them and use it as an excuse to prolong the war.

If that wasn’t what you actually meant then fine, just clarify it - but that’s pretty clearly what you’ve written there (which is why the post set several people off).

Also, I’m aware of the situation around the families of the hostages vs the Israeli government, and I think you’re going way too far claiming the government actively want the hostages dead - I think they’re just more interested in continuing the war than rescuing them, but they’d happily accept them home if the cost was low. But I guess that’s a separate point.

Edited October 25, 2023 by Panto_Villan

[bickster]

18 minutes ago, Thug said:

45 minutes ago, Tumblerseven said:

Look man, in my opinion none of your posts are balanced.  They are blinkered, prejudiced and one sided.

Your posts in this topic are as unbalanced and biased as the other fellas, Both as bad as each other.

Neither of you come across as discussing anything like in good faith. You’ve both made posts that miss out vital points or are just demonstrably untrue

[Thug]

https://www.timesofisrael.com/hanegbi-israel-wont-negotiate-with-hamas-on-hostages-now-will-remove-it-from-power/amp/
 

“Israel will not hold negotiations with an enemy that we have vowed to wipe from the face of the earth,” he said, briefing reporters at the Israel Defense Force’s Tel Aviv headquarters.

[Jareth]

Well done Celtic

[Thug]

13 minutes ago, Panto_Villan said:

I’ve quoted the post I was talking about.

For this not to be a misleading statement it’s necessary to mention that Hamas made an offer Israel was never realistically going to accept - otherwise it absolutely does read like you’re saying Hamas just tried to give them back, but Israel refused to take them back so they could instead kill them and use it as an excuse to prolong the war.

If you didn’t intend it then fine, just clarify it - but that’s pretty clearly what you’ve written there (which is why the post set several people off).

Also, I’m aware of the situation around the families of the hostages vs the Israeli government, and I think you’re going way too far claiming the government actively want the hostages dead - I think they’re just more interested in continuing the war than rescuing them, but they’d happily accept them home if the cost was low. But I guess that’s a separate point.

Ok, this is what I meant, but worded it (very) poorly, 

I don’t think they actively want them dead, but they don’t seem to be prioritising getting them released. The net result being that they will likely perish. 

 

[Thug]

24 minutes ago, bickster said:

Your posts in this topic are as unbalanced and biased as the other fellas, Both as bad as each other.

Neither of you come across as discussing anything like in good faith. You’ve both made posts that miss out vital points or are just demonstrably untrue

Like what?

 

[Tumblerseven]

10 minutes ago, Thug said:

Look man, in my opinion none of your posts are balanced.  They are blinkered, prejudiced and one sided.

The whole point of debate is to try to change someone mind - even a little.

You’re clearly on some different mission, and I find you tiresome.  I feel everything you say is to try to trap or provoke me, and you’ve already tried the typical methods of rallying everyone around to gang up on me - much like what I’ve seen in the media already.

I’m not going to directly engage you anymore because of this.  I believe your opinions are deeply rooted and completely prejudiced.  I find your lack of empathy towards people’s suffering (other than those you align with) to be deeply disturbing, and I feel that the more I engage you, the more chance I give you to spout your nonsense.

I don’t want any pain or suffering to anyone, Jewish people included.  I want de-escalation, all hostages to return home and above all I want peace.  I want Israel to be safe and to prosper, along with all its neighbours.  I want them to trade, and I want them to live happily.

So I shall leave it at that with you.  Whether you can bring it upon yourself to agree with any of that, quite frankly I don’t care any more.

UTV.

 

 

 I would like to do more balanced posts but i cant i feel very uncomfortable doing it because of people like you. Because this forum is full of people who are actually demonizing Israel minimizing what they suffered or justifying Hamas actions. (Yes yes no one sees it i know that the official line). I can point it out for three days and still no one sees it.

It really reminds me of white supremacist forums where they dog whistle 24/7 and pretend that no one is saying what they are actually saying. wink wink.

I think you are propagandist or act like one because:

1: You are talking about the situation absolutely one sided. You will acknowledge that people died from terrorist attacks and its bad for a sentence or two i think this is your defense to appear not one sided its not working. Then you proceed to do walls of text a one sided commentary.

2. You demonize israel. Statements that their main concern is a land grab. Statements they refuse to take hostages. Statements that they actually want hostages dead.

3. Selective information and quoting.  You will put an effort to provide something but your summary will be one sided unfair you will ignore or distort facts to fit the Israel evil narrative.

To laugh at Israels security concerns and to just dismiss that they are surrounded by all sides with hundreds of millions of people who hate them and want them to not exist is very very telling.