Davkaus Posted October 18, 2023 Share Posted October 18, 2023 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Panto_Villan said: I hope that after this conflict is done that a more moderate Israeli government takes power that is more willing to take on the settler lobby in Israeli politics. I share your hope, but I think it incredibly unlikely that they'd lean towards this without significant external pressure. As a layman without much more than a shallow and broad understanding of the history there, it certainly seems like the US benefits from Israel destabilising and dividing that region. Edited October 18, 2023 by Davkaus 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thug Posted October 18, 2023 Share Posted October 18, 2023 13 minutes ago, Panto_Villan said: Although I think they have a right to defend themselves, I’m broadly anti-Israel because I see them as having deliberately sabotaged the peace process over the last two decades so they can settle more occupied land. Until that changes, the violence is going to continue. But this thread really does make it obvious that for some people Israel will always be at fault, no matter the situation or what the evidence says. If you’re referring to me, then not true. When Hamas did what they did I was absolutely against it. That wasn’t Israel’s fault. There is a backdrop to that adds perspective but doesn’t excuse it, or justify it - it was 100% wrong. Not only was it wrong it was stupid, reckless, and a PR disaster. They have brought the wrath of a superpower upon themselves, and that is understandable. They should release the hostages unconditionally and immediately. There is no blame in that scenario to Israel. But cutting off water supplies, blocking humanitarian aid, and indiscriminate bombing is unacceptable, and these are all things considered war crimes for this exact reason. It is universally accepted that it is unacceptable. It needs to stop, for the love of humanity - and a better solution than collective punishment found. On a side note: I don’t know the validity, or why there hasn’t been any progress on this front… you’d think this was what israel wanted? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fun Factory Posted October 18, 2023 Share Posted October 18, 2023 Having analysed the situation I think the eventual outcomes will either be very bad or catastrophic. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desensitized43 Posted October 18, 2023 Share Posted October 18, 2023 4 minutes ago, Thug said: I don’t know the validity, or why there hasn’t been any progress on this front… you’d think this was what israel wanted? Surely that's only partially true. They want the hostages released sure, but they also want to degrade Hamas to the point that it won't happen again. They're also playing to their own politics here as well. Any government that is seen to be unable to protects it's people won't be in power for long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meregreen Posted October 18, 2023 Share Posted October 18, 2023 (edited) 23 minutes ago, Thug said: And therefore the war should stop, no? Of course it should, no reasonable person could think otherwise, Hamas however are committed to the destruction of Israel, so I doubt they would agree. The Palestinian authority in the West Bank still have people in charge, that could reach an accord with Israel, but sadly that seems further away than ever now. And so it goes on, tragic. Edited October 18, 2023 by meregreen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thug Posted October 18, 2023 Share Posted October 18, 2023 Just now, meregreen said: Of course it should, no reasonable person could think otherwise, Hamas however are committed to the destruction of Israel, so I doubt they would agree. The Palestinian authority in the West Bank still have people that could reach an accord with Israel, but sadly that seems further away than ever now. And so it goes on, tragic. And israel are committed to the destruction of Palestine. Why do you leave that bit out? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeyAnty Posted October 18, 2023 Share Posted October 18, 2023 3 hours ago, meregreen said: And I would never excuse anything that a bunch of Israeli settlers do that hurts innocents. But there is only one side that has the actual stated aim to drive the other side into the sea. Love the word settlers. Why not call it out for what it really is, especially as you’re the one going on about slanted posts? Its not as if they are going to Mars and settling there, then the term might actually apply 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thug Posted October 18, 2023 Share Posted October 18, 2023 3 minutes ago, desensitized43 said: Surely that's only partially true. They want the hostages released sure, but they also want to degrade Hamas to the point that it won't happen again. They're also playing to their own politics here as well. Any government that is seen to be unable to protects it's people won't be in power for long. Not how I see it. By accepting the hostages back, it weakens their stance to achieve what the actually want. They will kill their own citizens in air strikes before they’d lose any PR traction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meregreen Posted October 18, 2023 Share Posted October 18, 2023 1 minute ago, Thug said: And israel are committed to the destruction of Palestine. Why do you leave that bit out? No they’re not. If they were It would have been a fait accompli years ago. Israel is committed to the safety of its citizens. They see Hamas, Hezbolah and others who would destroy them in a heartbeat and resign themselves to the sad truth that the only thing keeping them safe is an overwhelmingly powerful military. It’s been a maze no one seems to be able to solve. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJBOB Posted October 18, 2023 Share Posted October 18, 2023 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Davkaus said: I share your hope, but I think it incredibly unlikely that they'd lean towards this without significant external pressure. As a layman without much more than a shallow and broad understanding of the history there, it certainly seems like the US benefits from Israel destabilising and dividing that region. If you asked me 10 years ago about the US, unequivocally yes. But the US is having a hard enough time preventing their own destruction and is increasingly losing ground to China and Russia internationally. I think their interests are more in line with preventing a further conflict in the region rather than inciting one. Post-wars and post-Trump, there is little stomach internally in the US for another war (overt or clandestine) and externally, the US reputation is in tatters. Edited October 18, 2023 by DJBOB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thug Posted October 18, 2023 Share Posted October 18, 2023 6 minutes ago, The Fun Factory said: Having analysed the situation I think the eventual outcomes will either be very bad or catastrophic. You’re not wrong. I honestly believe that the US & Israel are hoping that Iran get involved so that they have an excuse to destroy them. It’s been a long time since there was a world war. American politicians are buying up shares in defence companies, knowing full well what is coming. If anybody wants to make a quick buck, and doesn’t mind dirty money, buy shares in Lockheed Martin. You won’t regret it. Quote Previous Close441.13 Open436.56 Bid443.00 x 1100 Ask443.93 x 800 Day's Range442.15 - 446.70 52 Week Range393.77 - 508.10 Volume220,587 Avg. Volume1,214,790 Market Cap111.702B in order not to anger the mods I’ve had to quote an extract above, but it’s pretty irrelevant, it’s the graph that you need to see https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/LMT/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meregreen Posted October 18, 2023 Share Posted October 18, 2023 9 minutes ago, HeyAnty said: Love the word settlers. Why not call it out for what it really is, especially as you’re the one going on about slanted posts? Its not as if they are going to Mars and settling there, then the term might actually apply I used the word in response to a poster who referred to settlers. If you want to be pedantic, every group there, Jews and Arab, are the descendants of settlers. Indeed historically they can both be described as the descendants of invaders. Depends how far back you want to go. Not that any of that helps solve the areas problems. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panto_Villan Posted October 18, 2023 Share Posted October 18, 2023 1 minute ago, Thug said: If you’re referring to me, then not true. When Hamas did what they did I was absolutely against it. That wasn’t Israel’s fault. There is a backdrop to that adds perspective but doesn’t excuse it, or justify it - it was 100% wrong. Not only was it wrong it was stupid, reckless, and a PR disaster. They have brought the wrath of a superpower upon themselves, and that is understandable. They should release the hostages unconditionally and immediately. There is no blame in that scenario to Israel. But cutting off water supplies, blocking humanitarian aid, and indiscriminate bombing is unacceptable, and these are all things considered war crimes for this exact reason. It is universally accepted that it is unacceptable. It needs to stop, for the love of humanity - and a better solution than collective punishment found. On a side note: I don’t know the validity, or why there hasn’t been any progress on this front… you’d think this was what israel wanted? You were one of the people I was referring to, yes, but it was mostly because you seemed more willing to accept the Hamas propaganda line on the hospital attack over the evidence in the photos etc. I’m glad to see you condemn Hamas though, and I do agree with some of the other things you’re saying. I agree it’s a war crime to shut off water and food to a civilian population and Western governments should be calling that out. Personally, I also think the West should demand a greater commitment to the peace process from Israel in exchange for backing them in this war against Hamas, rather than this just being “blank cheque” backing. But I don’t think Israel are going to accept Hamas returning 200 hostages in exchange for calling it quits when 1,400 Israelis were massacred, unfortunately (maybe if the numbers were the other way around it might have worked). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeyAnty Posted October 18, 2023 Share Posted October 18, 2023 4 minutes ago, meregreen said: I used the word in response to a poster who referred to settlers. If you want to be pedantic, every group there, Jews and Arab, are the descendants of settlers. Indeed historically they can both be described as the descendants of invaders. Depends how far back you want to go. Not that any of that helps solve the areas problems. Im not being pedantic. Going back 1000’s of years to describe something it isn’t is being ridiculous. Might as well call the Russians forces currently in Ukraine as settlers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted October 18, 2023 Moderator Share Posted October 18, 2023 1 minute ago, HeyAnty said: Im not being pedantic. No one said you were, read the reply again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted October 18, 2023 Share Posted October 18, 2023 1 hour ago, meregreen said: The only truly indiscriminate ordnance being deliberately fired, are the many missiles that Hamas are launching with no guidance systems whatsoever. Unfortunately just how indiscriminate, was displayed at the hospital yesterday. Are you suggesting we cut the Israeli weapons budget or increase the Hamas budget? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thug Posted October 18, 2023 Share Posted October 18, 2023 21 minutes ago, bickster said: No one said you were, read the reply again 30 minutes ago, meregreen said: If you want to be pedantic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted October 18, 2023 Moderator Share Posted October 18, 2023 16 minutes ago, Thug said: Context is everything and you can be singular or plural and can be used as a general term for people. Its the latter in the context used. So can we get back to the other nonsense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted October 18, 2023 Share Posted October 18, 2023 Saudis have told their nationals to evacuate Lebanon immediately. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thug Posted October 18, 2023 Share Posted October 18, 2023 12 minutes ago, bickster said: Context is everything and you can be singular or plural and can be used as a general term for people. Its the latter in the context used. So can we get back to the other nonsense Grammar and punctuation is everything. The panda eats shoots and leaves. Anyway, back to the nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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