The Video Assistant Referee (VAR)

[StewieGriffin]

2 hours ago, foreveryoung said:

Another point is, from the start it should not have been referees doing VAR, they obviously don't like doing it, it needed to be independent staff with knowledge of the game.

This should be an absolute vital part of it's development - they need ex pros in the VAR hubs alongside officials to explain things to them better. There are countless examples of incidents that an ex pro could say is/isnt deliberate (regarding handballs, red cards and offsides where a player is/isn't deemed to be interfering) that officials just are not getting correct week after week.

You'd obviously struggle to attract "top level" pro's, but there's plenty of ex-pros from Championship-League Two level who would appreciate earning a good wage for being able to implement their playing experience. I imagine they dont go into officiating because they understandably dont want the abuse, but joining the VAR team could easily be done anonymously. 

[fightoffyour]

The rules need to be simplified before we have any hope of VAR working properly.

Firstly, offside should be offside regardless of any interfering with play bollocks. Every player on the pitch is or should be interfering somehow. Down injured by the corner flag? Tough shit, for all the defender knows that player could leap back to his feet at any moment. Then offside can be automated.

Handball is a total mess that I don’t know how to sort out, but someone has to. Clearly it can’t be any arm contact is a handball, but judging the advantage is also difficult.

Tackles will always be subjective so that should be for the ref themself to review, without bias or or slow motion replays, on a monitor or even better a screen they can pull from their pocket without moving. Then it’s actually not really VAR at all but a replay for the ref. Give a foul but say I need to see that again before I give any card.

[jimmygreaves]

2 hours ago, fightoffyour said:

Fistly, offside should be offside regardless of any interfering with play bollocks. Every player on the pitch is or should be interfering somehow. Down injured by the corner flag? Tough shit, for all the defender knows that player could leap back to his feet at any moment. Then offside can be automated. 

I was thinking about this watching the AZ match on Thursday. It's got to the point where I think you could have a forward player who stands 25 yards offside for most of that game against us. A through ball to a wide man, who's onside, could then carry it forward and cross to the, now onside player who'd be free to take on a shot. Any defenders who would usually be covered him are miles away. He wouldn't be technically offside due to it being a different phase of play.

This literally happened a couple of times and the ref and lino seemed perfectly happy.

Edited November 11, 2023 by jimmygreaves

[fightoffyour]

7 minutes ago, jimmygreaves said:

I was thinking about this watching the AZ match on Thursday. It's got to the point where I think you could have a forward player who stands 25 yards offside for most of that game against us. A through ball to a wide man, who's onside, could then carry it forward and cross to the, now onside player who'd be free to take on a shot. Any defenders who would usually be covered him are miles away. He wouldn't be technically offside due to it being a different phase of play.

This literally happened a couple of times and the ref and lino seemed perfectly happy.

The very thing that the offside rule was introduced to prevent isn’t it?

[S-Platt]

25 minutes ago, jimmygreaves said:

I was thinking about this watching the AZ match on Thursday. It's got to the point where I think you could have a forward player who stands 25 yards offside for most of that game against us. A through ball to a wide man, who's onside, could then carry it forward and cross to the, now onside player who'd be free to take on a shot. Any defenders who would usually be covered him are miles away. He wouldn't be technically offside due to it being a different phase of play.

This literally happened a couple of times and the ref and lino seemed perfectly happy.

Jackson scored a goal for Chelsea against Spurs Monday night like this.  About 5 yards offside but the ball is played to Sterling who was onside he runs down the wing and crossed to an unmarked Jackson to score.  The fact he was unmarked is because he had the 5 yard advantage over the covering defender.

It's bollocks!

[Mic09]

3 hours ago, fightoffyour said:

Tackles will always be subjective so that should be for the ref themself to review, without bias or or slow motion replays, on a monitor or even better a screen they can pull from their pocket without moving. Then it’s actually not really VAR at all but a replay for the ref. Give a foul but say I need to see that again before I give any card.

I think both tackles and hand balls problem would be minimised with better refereeing. Make it a precedent model - if one correct decision is given in game week 1, the refs need to study that and agree that if similar thing happens in the future, they will judge it the same way.

But that requires referees caring about what they do and improving the knowledge. Judging from characters like Mike Dean it's just a clique of people who think they know best and are soooo knowledgeable on the rules. 

[fightoffyour]

6 minutes ago, Mic09 said:

I think both tackles and hand balls problem would be minimised with better refereeing. Make it a precedent model - if one correct decision is given in game week 1, the refs need to study that and agree that if similar thing happens in the future, they will judge it the same way.

But that requires referees caring about what they do and improving the knowledge. Judging from characters like Mike Dean it's just a clique of people who think they know best and are soooo knowledgeable on the rules. 

Not sure the rules of the game should vary under different authorities according to events that take place during the first game week of each season in that authority, but certainly better referring would help.

[turvontour]

Its great for people that don't actually attend games as it just adds to the drama. A bit like the super league idea, those that actually attend all the games arent given a voice in all this. 

I really don't want to pay £1k a season to watch Ollie Watkins half heartedly celebrate a winner because the goal is essentially pending until a review is concluded. 

Edited November 11, 2023 by turvontour

[imavillan]

Mainstream media are now picking up on the incompetency of VAR and it's misgivings.

Three articles in todays Times. This is one reference errors up 50%

I'll post the other two big articles after this one.

 

 

[imavillan]

Todays Times

 

full article here...click click

How VAR went wrong: From minimal interference to five-minute delays

There have been 16 VAR errors this season compared with 11 at the same point a year ago, and the checks are only getting longer

Seven years ago Fifa’s referees director, Massimo Busacca, was extolling the virtues of trials of a video assistant referee (VAR) system, promising that it would take “not more than five or six seconds to review an incident — or two seconds more if we need one camera angle more”.

Last month, a new and unwanted record was set in the Premier League when a VAR review that ruled out a Jay Rodriguez goal for Burnley against Bournemouth for offside took five full minutes.

[imavillan]

 

Todays Times, going all out on VAR

full article here.....click click

 

 

The mania for perfect decisions is a nonsense – VAR is failing

 

new

System renders elite football a different sport to the one played in parks and playgrounds, spoiling the spontaneity of celebrating a goal and all that makes it magical

Lying in his suburban bed, imagining a world observed by the drones and cameras of the future, Win Everett, the embittered CIA man in Don DeLillo’s JFK novel Libra, turns to his wife and says: “The more complex the system, the less conviction in people. Conviction will be drained out of us. Devices will drain us.” It is hard to think of a better summation of the mess that football has got itself into in its unwary embrace of technology.

[Mic09]

2 hours ago, fightoffyour said:

Not sure the rules of the game should vary under different authorities according to events that take place during the first game week of each season in that authority, but certainly better referring would help.

Not saying the rules should change - just saying that they can be interpreted in various ways.

So if one decision is made one week, and it is deemed correct by a panel of experts, the referees should know that precedent for future. 

A good ref should know that if there was an argument of obstruction of keepers view 2 years ago, and now the same thing happened, a similar call should be made. 

[foreveryoung]

Overhauled and run by a more professional company unlike the PGMOL, it could probably work just fine, even with the refs we have. Problem is Howard Webb seems to be as protected as Gareth Southgate by the FA/Media, even though in reality he is doing a pretty poor job.

I think Dermot Gallahger admitting he didn't over rule a referee becuase it's his mate speaks volumes for the little click they are all in. You can't just lose that out of your persona either, i'm sure they all do it, an is probably half the problem, "ohh, your a more experienced ref than me so even though it looks wrong, I'll have to go with your decision".

[fightoffyour]

3 hours ago, Mic09 said:

Not saying the rules should change - just saying that they can be interpreted in various ways.

So if one decision is made one week, and it is deemed correct by a panel of experts, the referees should know that precedent for future. 

A good ref should know that if there was an argument of obstruction of keepers view 2 years ago, and now the same thing happened, a similar call should be made. 

Can’t they decide what’s correct in advance from examples though?

[imavillan]

Chelsea v Man City

VAR.....wrong again

a obvious error from the ref?? LOB......

it's nothing short of crap.......VAR now re referee's the game

it just has not improved the game one jot

wether it goes for you or against you....I hate it

Edited November 12, 2023 by imavillan

[Stevo985]

As much as I hate VAR, it was pointed out to me recently that it's probably a big reason why Villa are so successful at the moment.

I hadn't thought of it like that before, but it's surely true. The confidence the players must have that if they play our offside trap correctly then they will definitely get the decision must be a factor in how successful we are in deploying it

[villa4europe]

the strange thing for me is that i don't hate VAR in itself, i hate PGMOL and how they use it

the 2 offside reviews for us yesterday, watkins goal and torres goal, and then the digne 50/50 penalty shout, i dont get why they need to stop the game and spend minutes pouring over it, none of those decisions were difficult, those 3 decisions combined should have taken 30 seconds to clear up, i think i also dont like the whole "game has restarted" rule, I'm not sure why VAR cant be in the background and only revisit things that need revisiting (the 50/50) i don't like the whole scoreboard and announcement "VAR check" - i understand why its done like that for goals but for in play stuff just let play continue, they stopped the game to watch 4 replays of that 50/50, completely unnecessary, at times it feels like they'll keep watching and watching until they find something

again as always comes back to it not being ho FIFA and UEFA use it 

[Stevo985]

3 hours ago, villa4europe said:

the strange thing for me is that i don't hate VAR in itself, i hate PGMOL and how they use it

the 2 offside reviews for us yesterday, watkins goal and torres goal, and then the digne 50/50 penalty shout, i dont get why they need to stop the game and spend minutes pouring over it, none of those decisions were difficult, those 3 decisions combined should have taken 30 seconds to clear up, i think i also dont like the whole "game has restarted" rule, I'm not sure why VAR cant be in the background and only revisit things that need revisiting (the 50/50) i don't like the whole scoreboard and announcement "VAR check" - i understand why its done like that for goals but for in play stuff just let play continue, they stopped the game to watch 4 replays of that 50/50, completely unnecessary, at times it feels like they'll keep watching and watching until they find something

again as always comes back to it not being ho FIFA and UEFA use it 

As I've said before, they should review offsides but just do it by eye. If it's not obvious by eye that whatever decision was made on the field is wrong then go with it.

It might require better camera angles so that you're always looking down the line, or close to it. But we don't need to forensically analyse offsides. If you have to draw lines to the nearest milimetre then it's not an advantage to the attacker

 

[sne]

Just now, Stevo985 said:

As I've said before, they should review offsides but just do it by eye. If it's not obvious by eye that whatever decision was made on the field is wrong then go with it.

It might require better camera angles so that you're always looking down the line, or close to it. But we don't need to forensically analyse offsides. If you have to draw lines to the nearest milimetre then it's not an advantage to the attacker

 

And bring back assistants flagging for offsides instead of just standing there until the situation is played out. If they think it's offside then raise the flag.

[MrBlack]

1 minute ago, Stevo985 said:

As I've said before, they should review offsides but just do it by eye. If it's not obvious by eye that whatever decision was made on the field is wrong then go with it.

It might require better camera angles so that you're always looking down the line, or close to it. But we don't need to forensically analyse offsides. If you have to draw lines to the nearest milimetre then it's not an advantage to the attacker

 

Using an eye brings subjectivity and a whole heap of inconsistency into it.

Use AI or some none world-ending computer-based tool to automate where the lines are drawn. Add in a heap of allowance for the fact the timing of the ball release, the angle of the camera, and the possible % error that the positioning of the line may give, and then let a computer do the decision. Takes seconds.

Then they only overrule the onfield decision Ilif it passes that test and reaches a different conclusion.

Consistency and largely keeps ownership on the field.