Dodgyknees Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 1 minute ago, tonyh29 said: least they paid for the damage they did And then got in power and destroyed lives for thousands. A price worth paying, I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 1 minute ago, tonyh29 said: least they paid for the damage they did The bill for the damage the Bullingdon Boys have done is so vast as to be incalculable. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 1 minute ago, peterms said: The bill for the damage the Bullingdon Boys have done is so vast as to be incalculable. you could throw that accusation at just about any PM / political party though , guess as long as they aren't posh white boys some people don't care though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Pangloss Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 8 hours ago, tonyh29 said: From their statement of their aims it's Reds protesting to remove an elected government ( no peace until this government is bought down ) and presumably replace it with Corbyns labour (with coalition ) , that lost the election i hope its rightfully meet with condemnation by everybody .. I'm in London tomorrow guess I'd better better get my MacDonald's early before they trash the place .... The Socialist Workers Party were on the ground whipping things on the very same day the fire happened. Probably won't end well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 9 hours ago, LakotaDakota said: "Day Of Rage" planned for tomorrow in London. Sure rioting will help things... There's a discussion by a psychiatrist on R4 here starting at about 20.15. She discusses the immediate needs of a population facing the sort of disaster that faced the Grenfell community, and draws parallels with Haiti - though she makes the point that the inadequacy of the immediate response to the needs of the survivors was understandable in the case of the Haitian earthquake, and not at all explicable with Grenfell. She also explains that one of the biggest needs of a community in a situation like this is for justice. The protests are about the very well founded sense of anger people rightly feel at how they have been treated both in respect of the attention given to fire safety, and also the pathetic way the local authority in particular, but also the management organisation and the government, has failed them in the period since the fire. She explains that the long-term psychological impact of things like this depend in part on how people are treated immediately afterwards. So if the expressions of anger do help to prod government into action, then yes, it may help both the immediate situation and also the longer-term likelihood of a better recovery from this trauma. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 45 minutes ago, peterms said: The protests are about the very well founded sense of anger people rightly feel at how they have been treated both in respect of the attention given to fire safety, and also the pathetic way the local authority in particular, but also the management organisation and the government, has failed them in the period since the fire. That may have been the intention , and one I'd happily support .. however , that's been hijacked by presumably momentum and other undesirables as per the Mirror MFJ event page adds: "We will not settle for less than the destruction of May’s coalition of austerity and bigotry - we must bring down this government.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omariqy Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 16 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: That may have been the intention , and one I'd happily support .. however , that's been hijacked by presumably momentum and other undesirables as per the Mirror The protest is not about just one thing though, is it? Certainly the way people have been treated in the aftermath is something that will motivate many to protest. Another factor is the underlying situation that could have led to the basic safety of people being so disregarded, and when you look at that, it's not possible to explain it as a few individual mistakes by named people - it's a systemic failure by government, both local and national. So it will clearly attract people who were already concerned about that, and who would have been pressing for change even without this tragedy happening. I don't see anything either remarkable or objectionable in that - unless some fringe groups try to take over the protest, or try to turn it into violence (though untangling fringe groups and agents provocateur is always difficult - by the way, I see they will be taking lots of officers off the investigation into undercover and illegal policing because they are needed to cover basic police functions in the light of cuts, so I guess we will hear less than we might about what these spies get up to at events like this). On the quote from the event page, "We will not settle for less than the destruction of May’s coalition of austerity and bigotry - we must bring down this government.” , I should think that is a proposition which most people in the country would either wholeheartedly embrace, or at least sympathise with. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 24 minutes ago, peterms said: The protest is not about just one thing though, is it? Certainly the way people have been treated in the aftermath is something that will motivate many to protest. Another factor is the underlying situation that could have led to the basic safety of people being so disregarded, and when you look at that, it's not possible to explain it as a few individual mistakes by named people - it's a systemic failure by government, both local and national. So it will clearly attract people who were already concerned about that, and who would have been pressing for change even without this tragedy happening. I don't see anything either remarkable or objectionable in that - unless some fringe groups try to take over the protest, or try to turn it into violence (though untangling fringe groups and agents provocateur is always difficult - by the way, I see they will be taking lots of officers off the investigation into undercover and illegal policing because they are needed to cover basic police functions in the light of cuts, so I guess we will hear less than we might about what these spies get up to at events like this). On the quote from the event page, "We will not settle for less than the destruction of May’s coalition of austerity and bigotry - we must bring down this government.” , I should think that is a proposition which most people in the country would either wholeheartedly embrace, or at least sympathise with. Personally I think the Grenfell justice thing should have been kept separate ....Imagine if the justice for Hillsborough had tagged onto the last Anti Tory protests ,I don't think it would have helped their cause ? I'm guessing that a lot of sympathy for Grenfell victims could be lost if protestors start vandalising the Churchill statue and lobbying fire extinguishers off buildings as they did last time ... hopefully they won't this time out (especially as plod seems to be armed this time ) regarding your last line , we just had an election , clearly the whole country didn't wholeheartedly embrace the sentiment ... to have a few hundred people think that they can dictate otherwise should be something that most people in the country should be repulsed by .. The Queens speech has seen what can happen when 40 odd % of voters don't agree , bye bye fox hunting , bye bye grammer schools etc .. that's democracy , a small number of protesters demanding the end of an elected government , isn't Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 10 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: Personally I think the Grenfell justice thing should have been kept separate ....Imagine if the justice for Hillsborough had tagged onto the last Anti Tory protests ,I don't think it would have helped their cause ? I'm guessing that a lot of sympathy for Grenfell victims could be lost if protestors start vandalising the Churchill statue and lobbying fire extinguishers off buildings as they did last time ... hopefully they won't this time out (especially as plod seems to be armed this time ) regarding your last line , we just had an election , clearly the whole country didn't wholeheartedly embrace the sentiment ... to have a few hundred people think that they can dictate otherwise should be something that most people in the country should be repulsed by .. The Queens speech has seen what can happen when 40 odd % of voters don't agree , bye bye fox hunting , bye bye grammer schools etc .. that's democracy , a small number of protesters demanding the end of an elected government , isn't Agree with your first two paras. On small numbers of people dictating who runs the country, see the current position with DUP. The tories will tear themselves apart over the unfolding Brexit catastrophe, same as they knifed each other through large parts of the early 90s. Let's put them out of their (and our) misery before they do yet more damage. By the way, it's "grammar". 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NurembergVillan Posted June 21, 2017 Moderator Share Posted June 21, 2017 After all the debate in here about requisitioning property from the rich, and whether the poor should be forced to live in Cornish ghettoes, it seems there IS a magic money tree after all! I wonder if any of these folks will have a "right to buy" in place on their new luxury pads? I also wonder if a condition of taking one of these places is that it's considered full compensation for any prospective negligence uncovered by the inquiry? I reckon someone within Government has totally dropped a bollock, and this is a cover up job. But then I'm an anti-Tory cynic like that Quote Survivors of London's Grenfell Tower fire are to be rehomed in a luxury development in the heart of Kensington, the government has said. Sixty-eight one, two and three-bedroom flats have been acquired at the Kensington Row development, it said. The apartments are "newly built social housing" in a complex where the price of private homes starts at £1.5m. At least 79 people died and many more were left homeless after fire engulfed the North Kensington tower a week ago. There was widespread criticism and anger from residents at the slow and chaotic official response to the devastating blaze. 'Rebuild lives' The upmarket Kensington Row complex includes a 24-hour concierge service and a private cinema, the website of developer St Edward's says. Each new home will be fully furnished, and the government says will be completed to a high-specification. The flats are expected to be completed by the end of July. It is unclear whether the new tenants from Grenfell will have access to the same facilities as those in the private properties, some of which cost as much as £8.5m. The Department for Communities and Local Government said extra public money had been found so the flats could be fitted out more quickly, and more builders had been taken on. It said the "expectation was that these new properties would be offered as one of the options to permanently rehouse residents from Grenfell Tower". Communities Secretary Sajid Javid said Grenfell residents had been through "some of the most harrowing and traumatic experiences imaginable". "Our priority is to get everyone who has lost their home permanently rehoused locally as soon as possible, so that they can begin to rebuild their lives," he added. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40357280 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 Certainly has the feel of a very 'grand gesture'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted June 21, 2017 Moderator Share Posted June 21, 2017 Who won the predict a riot sweepstake from last weekend? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 (edited) I'm up in London so thought I'd swing by Westminster , maybe I was late to the party but all there was was a few hundred people and someone with a megaphone whose rant at the time was about Marching on Buckingham palace , could see one Grenfell banner everything else was Anti Tory and Pro Corbyn amusingly for me they are all gathered under / by the Winston Churchill statue but so far they've resisted the urge to vandalise it ... looks like I bought a baseball bat for no reason i only half jest jest I did actually buy a baseball bat and ball a wee bit earlier for my son as I finally found one in a shop in Oxford Street and he's been after one for some time .... probably didn't think that through if I'm honest , I am getting a few looks and people speeding up as they walk past me ... could swear the police helicopter above me is following me not that I'm paranoid !! as im typing this by Downing Street none other than the Mayor of London just walked by with his 2 minders ... bugger me he's short Edited June 21, 2017 by tonyh29 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 2 hours ago, NurembergVillan said: After all the debate in here about requisitioning property from the rich, and whether the poor should be forced to live in Cornish ghettoes, it seems there IS a magic money tree after all! I wonder if any of these folks will have a "right to buy" in place on their new luxury pads? I also wonder if a condition of taking one of these places is that it's considered full compensation for any prospective negligence uncovered by the inquiry? I reckon someone within Government has totally dropped a bollock, and this is a cover up job. But then I'm an anti-Tory cynic like that http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40357280 Tbh those properties are probably worth more than any compo that they would have received. Properties are ridiculously over priced around there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LakotaDakota Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 I suppose one thing that may have helped keep numbers down is that Glastonbury opens its doors/fields today. That & it is no longer term time so most of the students have gone home/are on holiday/at festivals etc. Doesn't look like there is much rage going on there, Just 2 coaches of socialist worker sellers out for a stroll around the capital Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 1 hour ago, tonyh29 said: i only half jest jest I did actually buy a baseball bat and ball a wee bit earlier for my son as I finally found one in a shop in Oxford Street and he's been after one for some time .... probably didn't think that through if I'm honest , I am getting a few looks and people speeding up as they walk past me ... could swear the police helicopter above me is following me not that I'm paranoid !! Let me get his straight. There is a demo which you have expressed concern might turn violent. You don't agree with the aims of some of those who may attach themselves to the demo, thinking they may cause trouble. You decide to check out the demo. On the way, you buy a baseball bat, which you carry (apparently) in such a way that other people can see what it is. Have I understood that right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 38 minutes ago, peterms said: Let me get his straight. There is a demo which you have expressed concern might turn violent. You don't agree with the aims of some of those who may attach themselves to the demo, thinking they may cause trouble. You decide to check out the demo. On the way, you buy a baseball bat, which you carry (apparently) in such a way that other people can see what it is. Have I understood that right? No I didn't buy it on the way I bought it earlier in the day and then went that way as an after thought ... rather than get on a hot sticky tube I decided to walk to Waterloo ... as I do nearly every visit to London when I'm not in a rush I was carrying it in a bag but it's like carrying an elephant in a carrier bag it's still obvious you are carrying an elephant when it's trunk sticks out the top of the bag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 (edited) 6 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: No I didn't buy it on the way I bought it earlier in the day and then went that way as an after thought ... rather than get on a hot sticky tube I decided to walk to Waterloo ... as I do nearly every visit to London when I'm not in a rush I was carrying it in a bag but it's like carrying an elephant in a carrier bag it's still obvious you are carrying an elephant when it's trunk sticks out the top of the bag Edited June 21, 2017 by Genie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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