Russia and its “Special Operation” in Ukraine

[KentVillan]

23 minutes ago, Risso said:

Eastern European countries in general seem to have a much bigger problem with racism in general. The Ukrainian family we took in have come out with some horrendous comments at times that I've had to put them straight on.

For sure, but that spans all the way from the Czech Republic to eastern Russia. The question is whether Ukraine is unusual in having this problem, and whether the current regime is making it better or worse (Zelensky doesn't seem to have any record of being racist / white supremacist or a far right sympathiser).

It also stems from the ex-Soviet countries having strong national identities in reaction to the ethnic cleansing and repression they experienced in the 20th century, and not having had to come to terms with globalised / multicultural life in the same way as the ex-colonial societies in Western Europe (which still have their fair share of problems with racism and the far right).

It's definitely a concern, but it seems to come up as a topic when people are trying to "both sides" the conflict. Not denying it's something to address, but surely right now the priority is to push Russian forces out of Ukraine, stabilise things, and work on that stuff as part of the post-war reconstruction of Ukraine?

Edited January 24, 2023 by KentVillan

[villa89]

21 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

Biden is on the war path..

US Confronts China Over Companies’ Ties to Russian War Effort

This should be enough to scare China. Take NATO out of their exports and the country is bankrupt in days.

It works both ways though, china has a lot of power because so their manufacturing industry is so huge. 

[Risso]

21 minutes ago, KentVillan said:

For sure, but that spans all the way from the Czech Republic to eastern Russia. The question is whether Ukraine is unusual in having this problem, and whether the current regime is making it better or worse (Zelensky doesn't seem to have any record of being racist / white supremacist or a far right sympathiser).

It also stems from the ex-Soviet countries having strong national identities in reaction to the ethnic cleansing and repression they experienced in the 20th century, and not having had to come to terms with globalised / multicultural life in the same way as the ex-colonial societies in Western Europe (which still have their fair share of problems with racism and the far right).

It's definitely a concern, but it seems to come up as a topic when people are trying to "both sides" the conflict. Not denying it's something to address, but surely right now the priority is to push Russian forces out of Ukraine, stabilise things, and work on that stuff as part of the post-war reconstruction of Ukraine?

Oh absolutely. They could be a nation of absolute far right rocket polishers, and they still wouldn't deserve to be invaded, obviously. I'd compare their attitudes to the generation including my grandparents who grew up before the war not knowing at that time a multicultural Britain. 'Our' Ukrainian fmily are middle class and had a nice lifestyle in Kiev before the war. He was a salesman for an industrial lubricants company, she was an area manager for their version of Costa Coffee. They just seem genuinely astonished at how multicultural Britain is, and don't get it at all. If they have those sort of attitudes, then it's easy to see how the less well off in Ukraine might be, especially those outside of the cities where life is generally very tough. It's also explains that if there's a reasonably high baseline of general racism, it's probably not out of the question that a small percentage of people are very, very racist/nazi in their beliefs. But as you say, this isn't unique to Ukraine at all. And I do realise that I'm generalising massively, but that's my experience of talking to them.

[magnkarl]

19 minutes ago, villa89 said:

It works both ways though, china has a lot of power because so their manufacturing industry is so huge. 

Yes, but what China makes is cheap goods that aren't really hard to make anywhere else. That is also China's main problem. For some more money you can buy the same goods China produces from somewhere else, and it'd likely be better quality too.

Without democratic nations' spending power China is nothing.

[avfc1982am]

13 minutes ago, Risso said:

Oh absolutely. They could be a nation of absolute far right rocket polishers, and they still wouldn't deserve to be invaded, obviously. I'd compare their attitudes to the generation including my grandparents who grew up before the war not knowing at that time a multicultural Britain. 'Our' Ukrainian fmily are middle class and had a nice lifestyle in Kiev before the war. He was a salesman for an industrial lubricants company, she was an area manager for their version of Costa Coffee. They just seem genuinely astonished at how multicultural Britain is, and don't get it at all. If they have those sort of attitudes, then it's easy to see how the less well off in Ukraine might be, especially those outside of the cities where life is generally very tough. It's also explains that if there's a reasonably high baseline of general racism, it's probably not out of the question that a small percentage of people are very, very racist/nazi in their beliefs. But as you say, this isn't unique to Ukraine at all. And I do realise that I'm generalising massively, but that's my experience of talking to them.

It's a great post and spot on. It's not always racism, it's just knowing no different than what you've been brought up believing. 

It's also a great thing you're doing taking in a family and helping them in a time of need. I salute you  

[Risso]

The word filter that changes a rude word to rocket polishers is a bit insensitive in this thread!

[tinker]

35 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

Yes, but what China makes is cheap goods that aren't really hard to make anywhere else. That is also China's main problem. For some more money you can buy the same goods China produces from somewhere else, and it'd likely be better quality too.

Without democratic nations' spending power China is nothing.

I think the all stuff from China ship is well on the way to sailing. I have seen a Chinese company install production facilities that were of a higher standard than their western competition. There is undoubtedly still  poor quality stuff but at a price point. 

[BleedClaretAndBlue]

Looks as if the US will actually send Abrams now, and Germany will follow suit with Leopards/export licenses

[bickster]

Quote

In Moscow, a Quiet Anti-War Protest With Flowers and Plush Toys

Police buses seem ubiquitous in Moscow since Russia’s invasion of Ukraine last February, watching over much of the city center, including a statue of one of Ukraine’s most famous poets that has become a popular spot for a silent but emotional outpouring of anti-war sentiment.

Since a Russian missile struck a residential building in the Ukrainian city of Dnipro nine days ago, killing 46 and injuring 80 others, Muscovites have been coming to lay flowers — along with plush toys and photographs of the destroyed building — at the feet of the statue of Lesya Ukrainka, a Ukrainian poet and playwright who lived during the last decades of the Russian Empire.

The ritual, after one of the biggest death tolls from one strike since the war began, has become an expression of sorrow, shame and opposition to the war. But at regular intervals, authorities have been removing the flowers.

“In contemporary Russia, under these conditions, it is a battle — a silent battle,” said Tatyana Krupina, a 28-year-old chemist who went with a small group of friends to lay flowers last week.

This is what passes for protest in Russia in January 2023, 11 months after the invasion. Russians have also begun laying flowers in other cities, spurred by social media.

The flower tussle is one of the first public protests taking place on a large scale since the days after President Vladimir Putin’s announcement in September that hundreds of thousands of men would be called up to fight.

Russia has imposed harsh penalties for criticizing the war, or even calling it one, so for many Russians, laying flowers seems like a rare opportunity to show dissent without being arrested.[...]

NYTimes via Yahoo

[LondonLax]

1 hour ago, BleedClaretAndBlue said:

Looks as if the US will actually send Abrams now, and Germany will follow suit with Leopards/export licenses

Yes it sounds like Germany will get in on sending their own tanks. 

The Abrams thing is interesting. I thought they were too much of a pain in the ass for Ukrainian logistics because they run on jet fuel and churn through it by the truck load. 

[avfc1982am]

 

[avfc1982am]

3 years old now this vid but a great insight into the Leopard 2 and it's spec. One thing is for certain is if the Dutch have 400 of these on their own then Ukraine shouldn't be short of donations. 

 

[blandy]

55 minutes ago, LondonLax said:

The Abrams thing is interesting. I thought they were too much of a pain in the ass for Ukrainian logistics because they run on jet fuel and churn through it by the truck load. 

Perhaps a token to “help” the Germans to release Leopards?

[LondonLax]

25 minutes ago, avfc1982am said:

 

That’s a pretty uncharitable analysis from that commentator.

I think Germany’s hesitation is more down to their collective guilt over the events of the 20th century. They still beat themselves up about it and have consistently vowed to never again take an aggressive stance in conflict. For example, unlike the UK, US, Sweden etc they have always refused to send weapons to Saudi Arabia to be used in Yemen.

However this Ukraine war has put their whole modern philosophy to war to the test.

It’s no wonder they are wrestling with what to do, and taking a bit longer to arrive at the same position as the NATO nations who are more comfortable with war. 

[avfc1982am]

6 minutes ago, LondonLax said:

That’s a pretty uncharitable analysis from that commentator.

I think Germany’s hesitation is more down to their collective guilt over the events of the 20th century. They still beat themselves up about it and have consistently vowed to never again take an aggressive stance in conflict. For example, unlike the UK, US, Sweden etc they have always refused to send weapons to Saudi Arabia to be used in Yemen.

However this Ukraine war has put their whole modern philosophy to war to the test.

It’s no wonder they are wrestling with what to do, and taking a bit longer to arrive at the same position as the NATO nations who are more comfortable with war. 

He's not saying Germany in general. His comments allude to what @bickster was saying the other day about Scholz and his coalition, not the Country as a whole.  

[Mandy Lifeboats]

Ukraine needs the Leopards first.  

Poland can supply all the maintenance, servicing and training.  Ukraine probably has some Foreign Legion fighters who are already trained.  

Challenger and Abrahams will put a strain on the logistics.  

Next step - F16.  

[LondonLax]

14 minutes ago, avfc1982am said:

He's not saying Germany in general. His comments allude to what @bickster was saying the other day about Scholz and his coalition, not the Country as a whole.  

Sure but I think the idea he puts forward that Scholz doesn’t want Ukraine to win is pretty far fetched.

[magnkarl]

20 minutes ago, LondonLax said:

That’s a pretty uncharitable analysis from that commentator.

I think Germany’s hesitation is more down to their collective guilt over the events of the 20th century. They still beat themselves up about it and have consistently vowed to never again take an aggressive stance in conflict. For example, unlike the UK, US, Sweden etc they have always refused to send weapons to Saudi Arabia to be used in Yemen.

However this Ukraine war has put their whole modern philosophy to war to the test.

It’s no wonder they are wrestling with what to do, and taking a bit longer to arrive at the same position as the NATO nations who are more comfortable with war. 

The issue is with Scholz’ party’s left wing and the left party, old men who have gone to Russia on ‘business trips’ for the last 30 or so years, stakeholders in oil companies, people who are more on the take than bloody Galloway.

Scholz doesn’t have the balls to rid his party of them, just like labour and the tories don’t have the balls to rid themselves of the same ilk in their parties.

[avfc1982am]

Just now, LondonLax said:

Sure but I think the idea he puts forward that Scholz doesn’t want Ukraine to win is pretty far fetched.

I think it's more those behind Scholz which it is where he's going with it. 

TBH I haven't a clue about German politricks which is why don't have any particular stance. I just want Ukraine to get what they need to survive.

[Jareth]