Steve Bruce

[Grasshopper]

1 hour ago, HanoiVillan said:

Gosh I can see I'm in a minority of nearly one on here these days. 

Personally I don't see why, if you didn't want him sacked two games ago, you would want him sacked now, after two games against teams still competing for playoff places while we have nothing left to play for. We aren't the first team to be 'on the beach' and we won't be the last either. I do expect us to turn up against Blues, but I sincerely doubt he's going to be sacked whatever the case. 

I would have sacked him latest v Brentford

[HanoiVillan]

Just now, DCJonah said:

Then why respond in the first place?

I'm not trying to persuade you, it's a discussion, not an intervention. I don't need you to change your mind to sleep well tonight. 

I don't think you do, and I'm aware of what this is. I'm just trying to cut short this conversation because nobody needs to read a long bickering discussion that gets nowhere. I've certainly said all I have to say on the topic of motivation, people can make their own minds up. 

[TRO]

I accept that we've have spent zillions....on players at this point that are not delivering, and haven't been in the past under other managers.

I have seen today's game and while it was a team I would not have picked, so he must have his reasons.....there were things individually, that no manager can be responsible for,it was piss poor. The goalscorer whilst scoring a world class goal was shocking in the rest of his game.....is this where we have all be so hoodwinked?

This team right now is some distance from being good enough for promotion.

Whatever the reasons for today's performance.....we were second best in just about every aspect of the game.

paradoxically, I am yet to be comvinced that Steve Bruce does not know what he us doing.

Why is it as bad as what I see......I am unsure, but immediately, I think that's some of the players are not as decent as we think they are.

I see certain things during a game and I ask myself.....Is SB responsible for that. Poor touch, is he responsible for that poor decision, is he responsible for you so easily losing the ball so cheaply, is he responsible for you not making that run.

Sorry, some of these players need to take more responsibility for their own performance.

I watched Jack score a great goal today......and deliver a shocking performance of nondescript proportions.We need to be able to reconcile that.

We have to get back to understanding what the likes of Gareth Barry, Alex Cropley, Gordon Cowans, Dennis Mortimer, Des Bremner, Andy Townsend, Ray Houghton, Garry Parker........deliver......and what standard, we expect from our team, in order to move forward.

I understand more than anyone the manager has to take the ultimate responsibility for team performance......I see some things like poor first touch etc or lack of movement from the individual......Where I really have my doubts.

Are all the managers crap.....we have had many and each has had their detractors.

We don't need obscene sums of money, we need good players.

[terrytini]

8 minutes ago, VillanousOne said:

I hope you are right I really do. I haven't seen any real signs of progress under Bruce but maybe that takes time and patience. I think if after a pre-season we aren't at least in the top 6 come January then what little good will and patience there is left amongst the fans will have gone.

I've had doubts so I empathise.

But " no real signs of progress " ? He's won as many games since joining a quarter of the way through this season as we'd won in the previous 2 and 1/4 seasons.

Two and a quarter seasons ! About 90 games.

So in the most important area there is spectacular improvement.

Other stuff is harder to quantify although I'd say our biggest failing under RDM was late goals conceded - stopped. Our character ? In my view greatly improved though others may disagree. Resilience ? Evidently better in my view.

I think he is too cautious - again today with three at the back and only really one genuinely creative player - and I think it's a serious flaw but I'm certain there's been progress and as sure as I can be he is as capable as anyone of getting us promoted.

 

[mikeyp102]

38 minutes ago, markavfc40 said:

I think that is what comes with so much chopping and changing though isn't it. The turnover in players in the last 9 months has been unreal. Then you throw into the mix working under two managers and numerous coaching staff and you are left with what a lot of the time looks like a disjointed mess. 

On paper Lansbury, Jedinak and Hourihane looks a great blend for a midfield three but hasn't clicked. They have probably started less than 10 games together though. On paper Kodjia and Hogan look as good a front two as any in the division but they have played less than a handful of full games together so haven't formed anything like a partnership. The only area on the pitch that has had some continuity is at centre back and Chester and Baker have arguably been two of our best performers.

I know some don't want to hear it but what this club desperately needs is some continuity and a period of stability and that has to come from having a manager for more than a few months before making a change. You clearly can't have continuity for continuity sake but I think backing a guy with four promotions on his CV, the last of which was 10 months ago, isn't advocating continuity for the sake of it. For me we have to give him a pre season, we have to give time for the likes of Bree, Hourihane, Hogan, Lansbury, Taylor, who have been here a couple of months, to settle and to form relationships/understandings on the pitch with the rest of the squad most of whom have been here for under 9 months.

The last thing this club needs is to rip the whole thing up again. Have another new manger and coaching staff come in almost certainly leading to another overhaul of the squad and quite possibly another season of transition. The one thing Brighton, Newcastle, Huddersfield (three teams in mix for automatic promotion) have in common is they all have managers who have been at their clubs for over a year. Who had pre seasons. I think given Bruce's CV he warrants being given that time and thankfully I think that the club are of the same opinion.

Top post, my thoughts exactly

[Mantis]

Serious question here: let's just say we sacked Bruce and got someone else in - does anyone believe that there'd actually be drastic improvement if we got [insert decent but realistic manager here] in?

This isn't an argument for keeping Bruce by the way - at this point I don't really care if he stays or goes. I just can't see us doing well under anyone, at least not in the short-term. Nothing we try works.

[terrytini]

Well TRO he had better players on the bench.....his choice not to use them must surely have been partly to look again at the peripherals and maybe one eye on next week.....can't think why else ....

But I'd say the majority even of today's players are of the necessary quality......you are never going to get the levels you talk about in the Championship.....you are referencing League Title winners and Internationals but we are a Championship side.

At this level you have to have a Manager who can get the absolute most out of the.

In my view Bruce has shown he may do, but equally fiddling with three at the back and often selecting the bare minimum of creativity won't help him, or them.

If the players didn't make the mistakes you refer to they wouldn't be here they'd be playing for a successful Club !!!!

I think, just like the Manager, our players are decent, but, also  like the Manager they are considerably short of perfect.

[sheepyvillian]

34 minutes ago, USA_Villa said:

I'm struggling to see how you think the promotion core is here. We scored 45 goals, the lowest of any team in the top 18. 

Is it that hard to see how dire we really are ? No sense of purpose, a complete lack of guile and body language that speaks only one word : resignation. 

Where to start ?

[terrytini]

2 hours ago, mykeyb said:

Sorry Terry I don't want to come across as picking on your posts or looking for an argument but can you elaborate on what you have seen from him that makes you think he can get promotion, by that I mean on the pitch or what he has said and not the "he has got 4 promotions" bit or his points per game ration which isn't good enough for a play off place this season.

14 wins, more resilience, coming back from an awful run, the January purchases, a more grown up and gritty looking side....and recently more leeway given to two guys who I think will dominate next year in midfield.

Now I'm not saying that's great. Or makes him invulnerable. And there are other aspects some could quote the other way, I know that, but you asked the question and thats my view...........I've never argued for the mythical 'stability' of itself, but IMO if at all possible we could do with having a steady ship, therefore for me I'd need excellent reasons to sack him, and for me they aren't there.

[TRO]

I was watching today's game and while I thought they were awful in so many aspects of the game and while I would not have picked that team....I thoughts large proportion of the  players were awful as opposed to the manager.

A proportion of this squad are not going to get us promotion.They are simply not good enough.

I am a great believer a manager is only as good as his players and that is not a "get out of jail card" for a poor manager......but they need time, money and windows to get that right.

Most of the managers in the past that have created any kind of success have done so outside of the 2003/3 transfer window.

This window has made it more difficult to fast track it, back to respectability.

The teams we are up against, who do it on smaller budgets, have less pressure to do so, so quickly and spend more time incrementally getting the right players over a longer period of time.

 

 

[terrytini]

2 hours ago, macandally said:

I now 100% believe Bruce is the wrong man for us.

His experience has been taking small time clubs and grinding out promotion against the odds, making him look good in the process.  We are a huge club, who have spent big on the leagues best talent and our approach should force that fact.  Be aggressive, press high up the pitch, put all of the small clubs we are playing on the back foot.  This has been Newcastles approach from game one and although they will lose the odd game, it has got them promoted.

We have attacking flair, great wing backs and attacking midfielders.  We then go out and sit in and counter attack against inferior opponents.  We are making our own problems and for me, Bruce and his desperation to have this job are prejudicing his approach.  We look bereft of movement, ideas and passing ability.  I don't blame the players, our play deep tactics mean we are constantly under pressure at the back.  Sometimes the best form of defence is attack, let's commit players forward (second game running with only one or two players in the opposition penalty area), Fulham had five or six in our box on occasion.  We only had that when we thumped the ball forward from set pieces.

Time for some attacking intent and the sooner the better, otherwise we are not going up next year

See, I agree with all that but would still keep him.

[terrytini]

2 minutes ago, TRO said:

I was watching today's game and while I thought they were awful in so many aspects of the game and while I would not have picked that team....I thoughts large proportion of the  players were awful as opposed to the manager.

A proportion of this squad are not going to get us promotion.They are simply not good enough.

I am a great believer a manager is only as good as his players and that is not a "get out of jail card" for a poor manager......but they need time, money and windows to get that right.

Most of the managers in the past that have created any kind of success have done so outside of the 2003/3 transfer window.

This window has made it more difficult to fast track it, back to respectability.

The teams we are up against, who do it on smaller budgets, have less pressure to do so, so quickly and spend more time incrementally getting the right players over a longer period of time.

 

 

You really thought a large proportion of the players were awful ?

Who ? I'm my view none were ......without doing a full match thing as it's for the match thread........I thought Grealish the weakest, ineffectual, but not awful........Bree and Amavi were mediocre, the rest average other than Baker and Chester who were ok.

Awful ? Nah. For goodness sake we got back in it with just ten men ?

[VillanousOne]

8 minutes ago, terrytini said:

I've had doubts so I empathise.

But " no real signs of progress " ? He's won as many games since joining a quarter of the way through this season as we'd won in the previous 2 and 1/4 seasons.

Two and a quarter seasons ! About 90 games.

So in the most important area there is spectacular improvement.

Other stuff is harder to quantify although I'd say our biggest failing under RDM was late goals conceded - stopped. Our character ? In my view greatly improved though others may disagree. Resilience ? Evidently better in my view.

I think he is too cautious - again today with three at the back and only really one genuinely creative player - and I think it's a serious flaw but I'm certain there's been progress and as sure as I can be he is as capable as anyone of getting us promoted.

 

But do we know how much of the spectacular improvement is down to Bruce? I said he made us harder to beat, but he had the talent to do so, he had Kodjia to score goals, Chester, Jed and Baker when fit to stop them, I don't think these things are too huge a deal in terms of getting a few very talented players to do their jobs properly. I dare see even RDM could have got things right eventually and if he or the people around him had made the right signings and not let so many people leave (granted they probably wanted to). In most of the games we won the margin was small and the form either side of that good winning run isn't much different to when we were winning, we set up not too lose and hope Kodjia scores. Not revolutionary tactics really.

I see RDM's failure as somehow being left with a weak and unbalanced squad after a lot of strange transfer business.

Bruce's failure is eventually having the right players, but maybe too little time with them and very little idea of how to make use of them and the squad he does have, Kodjia being away and Jed being injured also killed momentum. Green's injuries, RHM's injury (and contract indecision) plus Grealish being mostly useless have not helped Bruce's cause.
But i think others could have dealt with Tish, McCormack and Gollini better, because as much as at least the latter two have been dicks, I still don't believe sending them all out on loan was the answer (just my opinion don't flame me like old bbq). 

 

[vreitti]

The players today were fine. The problem is they're all running around like headless chicken. We are totally devoid of anything even remotely close to a game plan. The way I see it Bruce is barely able to pick a formation. Most of the players don't have a clue what they are supposed to do out there. And fact is we have plenty of genuinely good players. Just look at what Hourihane did 4 months ago, then look at him now. That is on Bruce. Sadly he doesn't possess the tools to fix it.

[sheepyvillian]

What good manager would tolerate an " on the beach " attitude ? Its not like they've earnt such a comfort . 

We need someone in the mould of  a Conti , unrivalled passion , the kind of man who could galvanise a cemetery .

[terrytini]

Villainous One of course you are right someone else might have done it....but Bruce did do it.

I mean I always thought a monkey could manage Man Utd with the players they had but look at what happened when Moyes took over, for example.

So regardless of what else could have happened, those remain my views as to what he's done that constitutes progress.

[terrytini]

3 minutes ago, sheepyvillian said:

What good manager would tolerate an " on the beach " attitude ? Its not like they've earnt such a comfort . 

We need someone in the mould of  a Conti , unrivalled passion , the kind of man who could galvanise a cemetery .

But there's no evidence of it ! You MAY be right that some have switched off, but you may not be ( I see nothing to suggest it). And even if it were so it's a common problem even for the greatest managers,

So you point at a thing which might not be there, but which would be common if it was, then cite us needing someone like the - current - top Manager in the Country !! You might as well have said we need Ronald, Messi, Bale etc.

I honestly can't relate to where some Posters are coming from at all.

[Grasshopper]

I've read many comments

Stability

4 promotions

needs time

PPG average

massive job turning this around

Own players

Click-ing

Gel-ing

BUT

The proof is there, in every game since October.

A clean sheet is only worth 3 pts if we score.

What happens if

1) Kodjia is injured, suspended or sold

2) Grealish doesnt get a worldy now and then

3) Grealish doesnt get a penalty now and then

4) we dont score from Set-pieces?

Bruce has shown in 30 odd games that outside of that box of tricks, he knows not what to do.

People make points for Bruce about, big job, experience and all sorts of correct and logical facts/opinions/stats......or whatever

BUT

The substance lies therein

Without the right man in charge of OUR club under OUR budget with OUR players we wont get promoted. full stop.

How many games does Bruce need to prove that he can get us up?

By the end of the season he'll have had 35 games. Add next seasons 46 and who knows where we'll be?

Can anyone give a rationale about his results thus far to suggest an improvement?

There isnt one.

His "trick" of conservative play hoping to nick a winner hasnt work enough to get us to the playoffs. It gets old, found out.

So why does anyone think its

1) possible to work next season over more than 35 games (46)?

2) possible for him to change his ways/approach when he has shown NO sign of doing so over the last 32 games?

One can throw ALL the theories in one reasoning to say keep Bruce, BUT why? hasnt he shown enough of his repetoire as a manager (FOR US)?

IT'S NOT WORKING

[TRO]

19 minutes ago, terrytini said:

Well TRO he had better players on the bench.....his choice not to use them must surely have been partly to look again at the peripherals and maybe one eye on next week.....can't think why else ....

But I'd say the majority even of today's players are of the necessary quality......you are never going to get the levels you talk about in the Championship.....you are referencing League Title winners and Internationals but we are a Championship side.

At this level you have to have a Manager who can get the absolute most out of the.

In my view Bruce has shown he may do, but equally fiddling with three at the back and often selecting the bare minimum of creativity won't help him, or them.

If the players didn't make the mistakes you refer to they wouldn't be here they'd be playing for a successful Club !!!!

I think, just like the Manager, our players are decent, but, also  like the Manager they are considerably short of perfect.

Terry.....I accept all of that.

my name dropping was in an attempt to highlight the standard we need to aim for....my point was.....we are some distance away from what we are delivering.

I accept that these things take time.

my other point was.......I see players at other clubs playing against us, showing a far better grip of the basic skills.....while In terms of their reputations being relatively unknown.

I struggled today to see any of Fulhams Players with any kind of reputation.....except a kid of 16 show us in terms of pace and intensity how to do it.

I simply don't think ( with the exception of Kodjia) our players show anything to get excited about.

Sure we had the glory of a world class goal......but that's part of the frustration, where was the rest of his game.

long way to go , for me.

 

[theboyangel]

Bizarre formation today especially considering the time on the training pitch since the last game and the fact it was ineffective and unfruitful when attempted in January. 

We're not equipped to play 5 at the back, as the wing backs neither defend or attack. 

Bruce found a winning formula by either good management or sheer luck and should have stuck with it or along those lines. 

I think the changes in personnel he made today would have suited our usual formation rather than 532. 

What today did show was several players aren't good enough even as squad players as they cannot be relied upon if called up.