terrytini Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 3 hours ago, bannedfromHandV said: Edit - pointless, ignore me 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stratvillan Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 1 hour ago, briny_ear said: I think one of the big problems for this whole discussion is that much of the criticism of Bruce is made by means of comparing him with an imaginary/mythical/notional manager who would have done better with the squad and resources available. Thus: "Steve Bruce has done well but he hasn't done as well as that imaginary/mythical/notional manager would have done with the same squad and resources." Who is this imaginary/mythical/notional manager? I have no idea but when suggestions are sometimes made, they are either horrific, for example, Neil Warnock (if he became our manager I would happily give up supporting Aston Villa in favour of the more enjoyable activity of collecting raw sewage with my bare hands) or impractical (e.g. Wagner, who as I understand it, actually had the chance but turned us down - maybe because he knew he may well founder on the challenge of the complete mess that Villa was a couple of years ago) Steve Bruce would not have been my first choice for the job but, in his favour, he (a) took on the job; (b ) through squad changes and coaching challenged and began to turn around the alarming lack of focus intensity and will to win that our first teams had been showing for 2 or 3 seasons (remember 2015/6 and the start of 2016/7 when we more or less stopped winning matches?); and (c) achieved a creditable number of wins and a lot of goals this season and got us into a playoff position which at the end of the 2015/6 season looked the remotest of remote possibilities. It's not perfect. We should have done better this season and in particular the failures in four recent very winnable matches have been extremely disappointing and show there is still work to do, but unless something goes disastrously wrong we are in with a shout of promotion. Will this be enough for his critics? No, because he is still being compared with that imaginary/mythical/notional manager who would have done better. It's the last line for me. If we don't go up Bruce will go. But in all likelihood we'll finish 4th. If the new manager is judged that 3rd or 4th is a failure, we could be in for a lot of managers over the next few years. Im not a Bruce fan, but believe that he's done a competent job. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
srsmithusa Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 5 hours ago, AntrimBlack said: Perhaps srs is originally from Scotland? Nope, but it is lovely. Have greatly enjoyed several visits. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
srsmithusa Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 1 minute ago, terrytini said: we usually do 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrytini Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 59 minutes ago, supermon said: Surely you must have picked up the words where he said "I thought we were excellent" Regardless of the actual performance Also once or twice Something about “ going again “ ? , and “ you have to “ ? I think, but could be mistaken. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 1 hour ago, briny_ear said: I think one of the big problems for this whole discussion is that much of the criticism of Bruce is made by means of comparing him with an imaginary/mythical/notional manager who would have done better with the squad and resources available. Thus: "Steve Bruce has done well but he hasn't done as well as that imaginary/mythical/notional manager would have done with the same squad and resources." Who is this imaginary/mythical/notional manager? I have no idea but when suggestions are sometimes made, they are either horrific, for example, Neil Warnock (if he became our manager I would happily give up supporting Aston Villa in favour of the more enjoyable activity of collecting raw sewage with my bare hands) or impractical (e.g. Wagner, who as I understand it, actually had the chance but turned us down - maybe because he knew he may well founder on the challenge of the complete mess that Villa was a couple of years ago) Steve Bruce would not have been my first choice for the job but, in his favour, he (a) took on the job; (b ) through squad changes and coaching challenged and began to turn around the alarming lack of focus intensity and will to win that our first teams had been showing for 2 or 3 seasons (remember 2015/6 and the start of 2016/7 when we more or less stopped winning matches?); and (c) achieved a creditable number of wins and a lot of goals this season and got us into a playoff position which at the end of the 2015/6 season looked the remotest of remote possibilities. It's not perfect. We should have done better this season and in particular the failures in four recent very winnable matches have been extremely disappointing and show there is still work to do, but unless something goes disastrously wrong we are in with a shout of promotion. Will this be enough for his critics? No, because he is still being compared with that imaginary/mythical/notional manager who would have done better. You think he should have done better but are annoyed with people who think someone else may have done better. Is there that much of a difference? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post striker Posted April 13, 2018 Visiting Supporter Popular Post Share Posted April 13, 2018 18 hours ago, A'Villan said: You would not include Terry or Snodgrass? Definitely not Terry. Believe he would be eaten alive in the Premiership now. Just too slow. Snody is a tough one. He has quality on the ball but also very slow and i'm not sure the money West Ham would be looking would be well spent? Would rather replace both players with someone younger and more athletic. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrytini Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 Disclaimer - I already know the answer by some will be “ that’s because he under performed last year” ( to which my reply is “ so may the others”).....and “ so he shoukd with the money we’ve spent” ( But that’s a linked but separate debate for which you’d need relative starting positions for each club, salaries, and anyway money often doesn’t buy success). Right, now that’s out the way. Last seasons Points after 46 games compared with this seasons Points so far for the 10 places below Automatic.... Reading 85 - 42 Sheff Wed 81-47 Fulham 80-81 Leeds 75- 54 Norwich 70-56 Derby 67- 68 Brentford 64-64 Preston 62-63 Cardiff 62-80 Villa 62-76 Only us and Cardiff with a significant Points improvement, most have collapsed, so ( in my view) another indicator he’s done a decent job. Second observation...maybe Fulham’s achievement not quite so remarkable as they started from a high base ( but, alternatively it was remarkable because all the other Clubs with a high base got worse) Anyway I thought it was mildly interesting..... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrytini Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 I’m not sure there is a single Manager in football as of today where at least some fans aren’t saying “we/ he should’ve done better”.....heard some Man City fans saying it the other night. ’Tis the nature of the beast. I think Bruce has done well, and I certainly didn’t think I’d be saying that after Reading and Cardiff last August. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A'Villan Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 1 minute ago, striker said: Definitely not Terry. Believe he would be eaten alive in the Premiership now. Just too slow. Snody is a tough one. He has quality on the ball but also very slow and i'm not sure the money West Ham would be looking would be well spent? Would rather replace both players with someone younger and more athletic. You are aware Chelsea wanted him to stay on as a player, this season? He'll be wily where he lacks stamina imo. Good for another year. Snodgrass is 30, consistent in the premiership but never spectacular, unless we are to invest heavily in every position, we will need to retain some of our squad from this season. West Ham and Snodgrass are done and as far as I'm aware they have foregone a considerable portion of his worth by leaving the situation untenable. Both have excellent attitudes and a lot of experience. The type I would like to see around the club, for culture as much if not more than ability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A'Villan Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 Ironically, Bruce has led us to a position where by we might attract the kind of manager we want to replace him with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
briny_ear Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 40 minutes ago, DCJonah said: You think he should have done better but are annoyed with people who think someone else may have done better. Is there that much of a difference? No, I don’t think that summarises what I am saying. I’m saying in context he has done pretty well even if it could and should have been better. But his critics will never accept he has done well because he will always be compared with the idea of an ideal manager who they think would have done better. it’s sort of Plato vs Aristotle if you’re into that sort of thing. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
briny_ear Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 47 minutes ago, terrytini said: Disclaimer - I already know the answer by some will be “ that’s because he under performed last year” ( to which my reply is “ so may the others”).....and “ so he shoukd with the money we’ve spent” ( But that’s a linked but separate debate for which you’d need relative starting positions for each club, salaries, and anyway money often doesn’t buy success). Right, now that’s out the way. Last seasons Points after 46 games compared with this seasons Points so far for the 10 places below Automatic.... Reading 85 - 42 Sheff Wed 81-47 Fulham 80-81 Leeds 75- 54 Norwich 70-56 Derby 67- 68 Brentford 64-64 Preston 62-63 Cardiff 62-80 Villa 62-76 Only us and Cardiff with a significant Points improvement, most have collapsed, so ( in my view) another indicator he’s done a decent job. Second observation...maybe Fulham’s achievement not quite so remarkable as they started from a high base ( but, alternatively it was remarkable because all the other Clubs with a high base got worse) Anyway I thought it was mildly interesting..... I thought it was very interesting but that may mainly be because I am an obsessive statto who loves looking at numbers. Amazing to contemplate Reading’s decline. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharkyvilla Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 1 hour ago, terrytini said: I’m not sure there is a single Manager in football as of today where at least some fans aren’t saying “we/ he should’ve done better”.....heard some Man City fans saying it the other night. ’Tis the nature of the beast. I think Bruce has done well, and I certainly didn’t think I’d be saying that after Reading and Cardiff last August. No doubt if we get promoted it'll be one of the most important jobs done by a Villa manager in a long, long time, and no doubt Dr Tone, Round and Wyness will be extremely grateful for it. There will always be a sense that we should really have gone up automatically though, rightly or wrongly. If we don't go up then God knows what we will do. I suspect Bruce has enough backing within the club to stay for the start of next season but in last chance saloon. For what it's worth if Fulham get second I think we will win the playoffs. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
srsmithusa Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 1 hour ago, terrytini said: Disclaimer - I already know the answer by some will be “ that’s because he under performed last year” ( to which my reply is “ so may the others”).....and “ so he shoukd with the money we’ve spent” ( But that’s a linked but separate debate for which you’d need relative starting positions for each club, salaries, and anyway money often doesn’t buy success). Right, now that’s out the way. Last seasons Points after 46 games compared with this seasons Points so far for the 10 places below Automatic.... Reading 85 - 42 Sheff Wed 81-47 Fulham 80-81 Leeds 75- 54 Norwich 70-56 Derby 67- 68 Brentford 64-64 Preston 62-63 Cardiff 62-80 Villa 62-76 Only us and Cardiff with a significant Points improvement, most have collapsed, so ( in my view) another indicator he’s done a decent job. Second observation...maybe Fulham’s achievement not quite so remarkable as they started from a high base ( but, alternatively it was remarkable because all the other Clubs with a high base got worse) Anyway I thought it was mildly interesting..... You're right, it is interesting. And you are right he's doing a decent job. I think anyone who says we're not any better, is wrong. But maybe it's a transatlantic difference. Here, a "decent" job means "minimally acceptable, to not terrible" Maybe in the home of the language, it means something a bit better. To an american, being decent leaves plenty of room for being better. So, it's easy for me to agree he's doing a decent job. Mostly because I like him so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
briny_ear Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 2 hours ago, supermon said: Surely you must have picked up the words where he said "I thought we were excellent" Regardless of the actual performance Yes. I still also awake up from bad dreams mumbling to myself, “Cannae fault the lads f’r eff’rt” 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
srsmithusa Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 5 minutes ago, briny_ear said: Yes. I still also awake up from bad dreams mumbling to myself, “Cannae fault the lads f’r eff’rt” I didn't know you were scottish ! You even dream in it. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 (edited) 6 hours ago, villabromsgrove said: It surprises me that we feel we have to preface our comments about Steve Bruce by saying "I like him" or "he's a decent bloke" in case we're accused of dislike. I do it myself when I post. Bruce should be judged on his abilities as a manager, not on being a "good bloke". I've expressed my views a few times and I'm still of the view that SB is not the man to take Villa forward. Bruce has adopted an underdog mentality over a number of years because of the teams he has managed. When you manage teams like Wigan, Sunderland, Hull and other similar clubs it's natural to develop a philosophy that allows you to survive rather than dominate. Bruce admitted some time back that managing Villa was a huge job and his biggest job by miles! Unfortunately in my opinion he hasn't seen fit (or been able?) to change that "underdog" style of play. We play percentage football. The keeper kicks it long or rolls it out to a full back who kicks it long. We're not aiming for our smallish striker, we're waiting for the opposition's bigger defenders to head it back into our midfield area. This is where it's about percentages .... how many times can we win the second ball? If we do we try to feed it out to the wing and hope to swing it in, where again we hope for a bit of luck with a Villa player occasionally getting on the end of something. How many headed balls did we see against Cardiff the other night? The midfield area was often a danger to low flying aircraft! We're not a particularly big or physical side so each headed ball is a lottery ticket, rather than a planned progression. After the number of games SB has been in charge for, I hoped for some visual acknowledgement that Villa usually have slightly better players than the opposition. Instead of which the opposite seems to be happening. How many times on Tuesday night did you shake your head at a Villa player's inability to hit a ten metre pass accurately? Our coaching must be more about lumping it and winning second ball, than how we use the slightly better ability of our players to win games. My view of SB's ability as Villa's manager is probably unpopular, but I can only say what I genuinely believe. Steve Bruce is not the right manager for Villa. I think that is a fair critique.....not sure all that is down to him, but thats subjective. more interesting for me is ....who would you realistically like to replace him with and why? Edited April 13, 2018 by TRO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 1 hour ago, briny_ear said: No, I don’t think that summarises what I am saying. I’m saying in context he has done pretty well even if it could and should have been better. But his critics will never accept he has done well because he will always be compared with the idea of an ideal manager who they think would have done better. it’s sort of Plato vs Aristotle if you’re into that sort of thing. I don't think they're available. 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 Made the playoffs. Minimum i expected but credit to him. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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