WhatAboutTheFinish Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 9 minutes ago, desensitized43 said: I'm just curious how people get to the positions that they do...nothing more than that. The way legislation is made is always subject to debate. It's called parliament (UK and EU). No legislation is just blindly accepted as it has to go through a process. I'm interested why people think our parliamentarians are more capable than those sat in Brussels or Strasbourg. I think if the last 3 years (and more tbh) has taught us anything it's that our parliament can't be trusted with more powers to make legislation. I think that if in the UK someone proposed a system where only an unelected second house (the Lord’s) had the power to introduce new legislation and MP’s merely rubber stamped it, we would think it was farcical! I mean sure, MP’s could lobby the Lords to introduce things but this happens behind closed doors. What happens when you’re not happy with the legislation that is introduced? Lobby harder behind those closed doors? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desensitized43 Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 (edited) 6 minutes ago, WhatAboutTheFinish said: I think that if in the UK someone proposed a system where only an unelected second house (the Lord’s) had the power to introduce new legislation and MP’s merely rubber stamped it, we would think it was farcical! Are you saying that's analogous to the current EU-UK relationship? Edited April 30, 2019 by desensitized43 typo fool! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhatAboutTheFinish Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 18 minutes ago, desensitized43 said: Are you saying that's analogous to the current EU-UK relationship? EU Commission - EU Parliament relationship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 49 minutes ago, blandy said: We've all been lied to. That is undeniable. Well, the implication of Quote I'll spell this out for you again. TRADE RULES, TRADE RULES, TRADE RULES the EU deal with TRADE RULES, not laws. Believe it or not, you've been lied to is pretty clearly that he has been taken in by the lies, not that lies have been told to everyone. Ironically, the statement preceding the bit about lies is itself incorrect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desensitized43 Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 51 minutes ago, WhatAboutTheFinish said: EU Commission - EU Parliament relationship. Even the most ardent remainer would admit it's not a perfect organisation by any means. I guess where we would differ is that I believe it's possible to correct those problems and leavers clearly think it's irredeemable. i certainly can understand that point of view even though it seems like giving up to me. I'd rather work with our friends (the ones we have left) and try and put it right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhatAboutTheFinish Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 8 minutes ago, desensitized43 said: Even the most ardent remainer would admit it's not a perfect organisation by any means. I guess where we would differ is that I believe it's possible to correct those problems and leavers clearly think it's irredeemable. i certainly can understand that point of view even though it seems like giving up to me. I'd rather work with our friends (the ones we have left) and try and put it right. You’re position is perfectly reasonable and I respect it. You are also right that it is where we differ, as I feel there is no desire to change from the EU. They don’t really think there is a problem. All noises coming from Brussels relate to strengthening the current institutions, not modernising or reforming them. As far as I can see the ‘reform from withiners’ might as well get themselves off to the unicorn party with the ‘renegotiate the dealers’. Ultimately, it is a system of government I would oppose in London, why would I prop it up just because it is in Brussels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 1 hour ago, WhatAboutTheFinish said: I think that if in the UK someone proposed a system where only an unelected second house (the Lord’s) had the power to introduce new legislation and MP’s merely rubber stamped it, we would think it was farcical! I'm not sure that's a great analogy or an accurate portrayal of the role of the European Parliament. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 4 hours ago, Mic09 said: Regardless, I am not arguing for leave here, I simply posed a question and feel like your answer has attacked me as if I was arguing for leave, which might support my argument that people who would like to vote for leave are ridiculed. I feel there is a contingent of people who are not open to a debate about leaving, and discussion along the lines of "bullshit argument" or "your imagination" isn't really helping. Those people should no longer be making arguments of why we should leave. They should be making arguments of how we should leave. They've won the first part, but if they can't even begin on the second part then they'll find they lose their victory on the first. From what I can see, with the possible exception of Richard North, I have yet to see anyone present a coherent vision for what the next bit looks like which doesn't collapse like a house of cards as soon as you poke it. So we end up with Malthouse this and GATT 24 that, because easy fantasies are still more palatable than difficult realities. As a result, the situation has been allowed to atrophy, with nobody being able to articulate anything beyond that we should. So I have no issue with people articulating why they want to leave. But if they are doing so without a coherent explanation of what to do next, then they are being intellectually cowardly. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 I'm beginning to think Theresa May has handled all this in a sub optimal way. From the un needed snap election, to serving article 50, not having a deputy, the secrecy, the lack of communication the lack of building relationships and networks, the lack of consensus nationally, politically, within her party, within her cabinet. Least competent PM ever? I mean plenty have got stuff wrong, but she's just failed on every conceivable metric. There's actually a very strong argument, that with a complete lack of 'government' the country has kept on keeping on. It's turning in to an argument for politics to be just a gig economy thing. We clearly don't need them steering our ship on a daily basis. Pay them per piece of good legislation they draft and pass. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 48 minutes ago, WhatAboutTheFinish said: You’re position is perfectly reasonable and I respect it. You are also right that it is where we differ, as I feel there is no desire to change from the EU. They don’t really think there is a problem. All noises coming from Brussels relate to strengthening the current institutions, not modernising or reforming them. As far as I can see the ‘reform from withiners’ might as well get themselves off to the unicorn party with the ‘renegotiate the dealers’. Ultimately, it is a system of government I would oppose in London, why would I prop it up just because it is in Brussels. I agree with the bolded. 'Remain and reform' is a positive argument, which makes it more convincing than some of the arguments from the technocratic centre, which - at least on Twitter - often boil down to abstract numbers regarding GDP, trade volumes and so on, or asking people to feel a sense of loss about things they haven't benefited from in a tangible way like the Erasmus program or the presence of the European Medicines Agency in London. Nevertheless, 'remain and reform' seems deeply implausible to me; where is the appetite for it, apart from possibly within the centre left of the Labour party? Jacques Delors was a long time ago, and the likes of Merkel and Macron think the way it is now is how it should be. What's more, the European Parliament is dominated by the centre right, who are not going to be leading any assaults on the Commission's powers any time soon. I think I would still vote to Remain in any second referendum, but I'm not blind to these flaws in the 'remain and reform' argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 2 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: I'm beginning to think Theresa May has handled all this in a sub optimal way. From the un needed snap election, to serving article 50, not having a deputy, the secrecy, the lack of communication the lack of building relationships and networks, the lack of consensus nationally, politically, within her party, within her cabinet. Least competent PM ever? I mean plenty have got stuff wrong, but she's just failed on every conceivable metric. There's actually a very strong argument, that with a complete lack of 'government' the country has kept on keeping on. It's turning in to an argument for politics to be just a gig economy thing. We clearly don't need them steering our ship on a daily basis. Pay them per piece of good legislation they draft and pass. Relative to what? The economy is performing poorly, we've had a decade of stagnation, houses are unaffordable to all but the richest, the rise in homelessness is desperate, the country keeps failing to meet its environmental targets, waiting lists are longer, and on and on and on. The country has 'kept on keeping on' relative to dystopian fiction, sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 50 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said: Relative to what? The economy is performing poorly, we've had a decade of stagnation, houses are unaffordable to all but the richest, the rise in homelessness is desperate, the country keeps failing to meet its environmental targets, waiting lists are longer, and on and on and on. The country has 'kept on keeping on' relative to dystopian fiction, sure. Yep, I wasn't arguing that today is utopia, I was arguing that it was highly likely no better or worse than it would have been if all the MP's weren't distracted for 3 years by Brexit. Had brexit never been a thing, I'm fairly confident we'd have had years of busy politicians fixing things for us and we'd be pretty much where we are today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 1 hour ago, chrisp65 said: Yep, I wasn't arguing that today is utopia, I was arguing that it was highly likely no better or worse than it would have been if all the MP's weren't distracted for 3 years by Brexit. Had brexit never been a thing, I'm fairly confident we'd have had years of busy politicians fixing things for us and we'd be pretty much where we are today. To be clear, it's not that I really believe the Tories would be coming up with some slam-dunk brilliant legislation otherwise, it's that Brexit has given them a convenient excuse (entirely of their own making) where the media have let them get away with ultra-low expectations because 'how could they be doing anything when Brexit takes up all the bandwidth'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 An excellent day's work I feel. (I'm not even being ironic either) (Though I guess this tightrope-walk could still end in disaster yet) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted April 30, 2019 Author Moderator Share Posted April 30, 2019 1 minute ago, HanoiVillan said: An excellent day's work I feel. (I'm not even being ironic either) (Though I guess this tightrope-walk could still end in disaster yet) Awful, cynical, lacking any sense of principle or moral fibre. They deserve to ( in a political sense ) die out with the vile tories, and I **** hope they do. Corbyn is poison. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 For me, if you have a strong feeling either way, leave or remain, voting Labour is a risk they'll take your vote and do the opposite of what you want. Vote Labour by all means, just don't complain later if they say they've been 'very clear' they were always going to do the opposite of what you thought you voted for. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted April 30, 2019 Moderator Share Posted April 30, 2019 I expected no less from Labour. This absolutely woeful position was contrived by the Corbynistas in the conference composite to appease the vast majority of the party membership, who quite frankly had the wool pulled over their eyes, including Keir Starmer, who clearly thought he'd got something else. Labour under Corbyn deserve to be killed off for good and it'll be all their own fault From shithouses like Gareth Snell who knows damn well what it will mean for his constituents but won't tell them to all the secret Brexiteers like Corbyn and McDonald who won't actually come out and say what they actually want. As usual, it's all about seat retention and not what's actually good for the country. The Labour Party is being run by the biggest bunch of duplicitous dishonest toerags in its history (and they have some stiff competition). 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Posted May 1, 2019 Share Posted May 1, 2019 6 hours ago, HanoiVillan said: An excellent day's work I feel. (I'm not even being ironic either) (Though I guess this tightrope-walk could still end in disaster yet) Yep. I think they've just reiterated their existing position? I think that's the correct option at this point in time. Vote-wise anyway. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted May 1, 2019 Share Posted May 1, 2019 8 hours ago, HanoiVillan said: An excellent day's work I feel. What kind of work did they have to put in to come up with the same old shit? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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