The now-enacted will of (some of) the people

[StefanAVFC]

European Commission expected to say that UK citizens in Europe will effectively become illegal from 29th March in the result of no deal and it’ll be left to individual countries on how to handle it.

Thanks Theresa you witch. Detestable excuse for a human being. 

[blandy]

10 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said:

European Commission expected to say that UK citizens in Europe will effectively become illegal from 29th March in the result of no deal and it’ll be left to individual countries on how to handle it.

Thanks Theresa you witch. Detestable excuse for a human being. 

TBF, that's the EU being twunts. It's not the (supposed) "ideal" of the EU to treat people like that. If the UK did it, we'd be mad at the heartlessness of the Tories. For all that our politicians have been massive throwers, the EU aren't exactly immune from dickishness either. I just feel sorry for the people hit by all the idiocy and posturing.

[Chindie]

12 minutes ago, bickster said:

Or it's a push back against May's attempts at back my deal or it's No Deal

May is trying to strongarm people to her deal with a My Deal or No Deal stance

They are pushing back saying, No Deal and we just quit the party.

I don't think there's anything mealy-mouthed about it. They are essentially saying, you can only push party loyalty so far and we will act in the national interest if No Deal becomes policy.

It's having their cake and eating it (ironically enough). There's no chance that Tory policy is going to be No Deal. The policy is, and will remain to be, get a deal (right now, May's deal) across the line. That won't change to No Deal is the party's desired outcome, because it's suicidal and only a few complete lunatics and chancers want it. 

In the meantime, their party policy officially supports a deal that will not be passed, and increasingly risks No Deal happening through outright negligence. But this position isn't something they'll resign the whip over.

It lets them act principled while actually risking nothing.

[HanoiVillan]

12 minutes ago, bickster said:

Which bit don't you agree with? Labour being a party of Brexit? The EU allowing an extension for a GE that is fought along Leave / Remain lines only?

I'm not sure how anyone can disagree with those tbh

I think I'm struggling slightly to understand your point, so I'm going to try to set it out here. If I'm misunderstanding you, let me know.

I think you're saying that the EU would offer an article 50 extension in the case of a second referendum, and also a GE, but only if Labour become a 'party of Remain'. I'm not sure how you think this would be possible, but in my eyes it isn't, in the terms I think you mean, ie. some kind of public statement that they now think Remaining in the EU is the best option. Labour have a policy, decided at party conference, and they aren't going to have a leadership election in the next month, so I'm not sure what can possibly change. Ergo, I think that what you are saying is that in this scenario, where Labour's policy doesn't change significantly from now until Jan 14th, that the EU wouldn't grant an extension to article 50 even if Labour won a VONC. This is what I disagree with; I think the EU would have little choice but to respond to such a massive material change in circumstances as 'the UK having no government for six weeks' with accepting an article 50 extension if it were made by a new government. I accept that this is a question of belief, to some extent, but that's where I am, so yes, your second question is the one I disagree with, I think, as phrased above. 

Additionally and somewhat separately, if Jeremy Corbyn were to want to commit to Remain or a soft Brexit, I assume he would be better off doing so via back channels with Brussels rather than some sort of big public fanfare right now.

[bickster]

5 minutes ago, Chindie said:

It's having their cake and eating it (ironically enough). There's no chance that Tory policy is going to be No Deal. The policy is, and will remain to be, get a deal (right now, May's deal) across the line. That won't change to No Deal is the party's desired outcome, because it's suicidal and only a few complete lunatics and chancers want it. 

In the meantime, their party policy officially supports a deal that will not be passed, and increasingly risks No Deal happening through outright negligence. But this position isn't something they'll resign the whip over.

It lets them act principled while actually risking nothing.

I think you're missing the point. May is posturing, they've postured back. That's all it is

[snowychap]

2 minutes ago, Chindie said:

It's having their cake and eating it (ironically enough). There's no chance that Tory policy is going to be No Deal. The policy is, and will remain to be, get a deal (right now, May's deal) across the line. That won't change to No Deal is the party's desired outcome, because it's suicidal and only a few complete lunatics and chancers want it. 

In the meantime, their party policy officially supports a deal that will not be passed, and increasingly risks No Deal happening through outright negligence. But this position isn't something they'll resign the whip over.

It lets them act principled while actually risking nothing.

I see what you say and probably agree.

What I do wonder, though, is the position that arises if they go through the meaningful vote process, her deal is rejected and then they return to parliament to make their statement on what the government's position is.

Boles didn't say party policy, he did say the government policy which I guess brings in the part about how the government intends to proceed in light of a section 13 vote on the withdrawal agreement not being passed.

Obviously there are all sorts of get outs and these kinds of statements are, like anything else in politics, more about giving warnings rather than going through with actions but it wouldn't be the most surprising thing in the world to see a few people actually resign the whip if they think it's the last resort.

[ml1dch]

15 minutes ago, blandy said:

TBF, that's the EU being twunts. It's not the (supposed) "ideal" of the EU to treat people like that. If the UK did it, we'd be mad at the heartlessness of the Tories. For all that our politicians have been massive throwers, the EU aren't exactly immune from dickishness either. I just feel sorry for the people hit by all the idiocy and posturing.

Immigration is a shared competence - things like access to social services and registration systems are under the control of member states, not the Commission.

Could they do or say a bit more? Probably.

Can they unilaterally say "nothing changes for British people across the EU?" Only if we're comfortable with the Commission deciding third-country immigration policy for 27 independent countries.

Edited December 19, 2018 by ml1dch

[bickster]

2 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

I think I'm struggling slightly to understand your point, so I'm going to try to set it out here. If I'm misunderstanding you, let me know.

I think you're saying that the EU would offer an article 50 extension in the case of a second referendum, and also a GE, but only if Labour become a 'party of Remain'. I'm not sure how you think this would be possible, but in my eyes it isn't, in the terms I think you mean, ie. some kind of public statement that they now think Remaining in the EU is the best option. Labour have a policy, decided at party conference, and they aren't going to have a leadership election in the next month, so I'm not sure what can possibly change. Ergo, I think that what you are saying is that in this scenario, where Labour's policy doesn't change significantly from now until Jan 14th, that the EU wouldn't grant an extension to article 50 even if Labour won a VONC. This is what I disagree with; I think the EU would have little choice but to respond to such a massive material change in circumstances as 'the UK having no government for six weeks' with accepting an article 50 extension if it were made by a new government. I accept that this is a question of belief, to some extent, but that's where I am, so yes, your second question is the one I disagree with, I think, as phrased above. 

Additionally and somewhat separately, if Jeremy Corbyn were to want to commit to Remain or a soft Brexit, I assume he would be better off doing so via back channels with Brussels rather than some sort of big public fanfare right now.

2

Why do you think they'd have no option but to grant an extension? They can easily say no and are likely to

Labour's Policy is actually meaningless drivel at this point as I understand it. It's three stages. get a general election (unlikely), renegotiate the deal (not happening), failing that a referendum. They will never get past stage one until it's too late, ergo by definition, they are a party of Brexit and the EU will not grant an extension to see if the country can elect another Brexit Party.

The only back channel Corbyn has is the one he talks out of tbh. Even his "socialist" counterparts in Europe think its time for him to wake up and continue to smell the Danish Bacon

[StefanAVFC]

16 minutes ago, blandy said:

TBF, that's the EU being twunts. It's not the (supposed) "ideal" of the EU to treat people like that. If the UK did it, we'd be mad at the heartlessness of the Tories. For all that our politicians have been massive throwers, the EU aren't exactly immune from dickishness either. I just feel sorry for the people hit by all the idiocy and posturing.

I mean, if the UK would just come out and guarantee that EU citizens will have some security whatever happens then I’m sure the EU will reciprocate. 

Instead we’re unveiling stupid immigration policies miles away from reality (where did they even get a 30k threshold from anyway) and calling EU immigrants queue jumpers. It’s not surprising the EU are fed up. 

[peterms]

23 minutes ago, bickster said:

Which bit don't you agree with? Labour being a party of Brexit? The EU allowing an extension for a GE that is fought along Leave / Remain lines only?

I'm not sure how anyone can disagree with those tbh

Labour would not fight a GE on the basis of proposing Brexit.  More likely would be "we respected the result of the referendum, the tories failed to negotiate something decent, no deal is not a runner, we now need to consult people again on which of the actually available options they prefer, and we will also seek to explore what room for movement there may be with the EU".

It is very important, though remainers seem not to be at all bothered by this, that any second referendum has some political legitimacy.  That requires a shift in public opinion, not procedural chicanery or deals in the HoC.  That would be the case at any time, though in a situation where it seems many voting leave already feel disengaged, alienated, overlooked, it becomes even more of a consideration.  But most of what I hear from remainers is anger that they aren't getting their way, and that someone doesn't simply do something to let them have their way.  The two sides continue to talk past each other, ever more stridently.

The EU will agree an extension.  It is not in their interest not to.  In doing so, they can't lay down the acceptable parameters of a UK election campaign.

[Mozzavfc]

39 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said:

European Commission expected to say that UK citizens in Europe will effectively become illegal from 29th March in the result of no deal and it’ll be left to individual countries on how to handle it.

Thanks Theresa you witch. Detestable excuse for a human being. 

3 months then to find a polish wife to get that sweet Polish passport and EU access. What a strange world we now live in

 

Is there still time to get an Irish passport?

[Stevo985]

1 minute ago, Mozzavfc said:

Is there still time to get an Irish passport?

My forms go in the post tonight

[bickster]

2 minutes ago, Mozzavfc said:

Is there still time to get an Irish passport?

 

If you qualify, you qualify, there is no time limit

[tonyh29]

1 minute ago, Mozzavfc said:

3 months then to find a polish wife to get that sweet Polish passport and EU access. What a strange world we now live in

 

Is there still time to get an Irish passport?

too late , Jack Charlton left the Ireland managers job in 1996

[Chindie]

14 minutes ago, snowychap said:

I see what you say and probably agree.

What I do wonder, though, is the position that arises if they go through the meaningful vote process, her deal is rejected and then they return to parliament to make their statement on what the government's position is.

Boles didn't say party policy, he did say the government policy which I guess brings in the part about how the government intends to proceed in light of a section 13 vote on the withdrawal agreement not being passed.

Obviously there are all sorts of get outs and these kinds of statements are, like anything else in politics, more about giving warnings rather than going through with actions but it wouldn't be the most surprising thing in the world to see a few people actually resign the whip if they think it's the last resort.

I'm still not convinced that No Deal would become policy. I think that word is doing a lot of lifting in these statements.

I could see a couple of whips resigned, perhaps, but I've so little faith in this parliament I'd be slightly surprised even at that.

[bickster]

Just now, Chindie said:

I'm still not convinced that No Deal would become policy. I think that word is doing a lot of lifting in these statements.

I could see a couple of whips resigned, perhaps, but I've so little faith in this parliament I'd be slightly surprised even at that.

I think No Deal is when the Tory Party splits

[Chindie]

1 minute ago, bickster said:

I think No Deal is when the Tory Party splits

I think No Deal is when a few Tories grumble a bit and then go quiet.

[peterms]

11 minutes ago, Mozzavfc said:

Is there still time to get an Irish passport?

Applications to register citizenship are taking perhaps 6 or 7 months, according to the consulate in Scotland.

[ml1dch]

30 minutes ago, peterms said:

Remainers seem not to be at all bothered by this, that any second referendum has some political legitimacy.  

That's quite the blanket statement you've got going on there.

30 minutes ago, peterms said:

The EU will agree an extension.  It is not in their interest not to.  

Which part of an extension is in their interest? What are they extending it for?

Edited December 19, 2018 by ml1dch

[Chindie]

This is fine.