The now-enacted will of (some of) the people

[Chindie]

2 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

I'd say that the EU is one of the direct causes for the Ukraine war with what they did before that conflict began even though they were warned several times by Russia to stop meddling.

Okay, so let's change the argument to "EU created peace". If you think that the EU is the sole reason why there's no war in Europe then surely that should only be something that happened since ww2 on our continent right? Look at the "triangle" in Asia that always used to be at war up until the Korean War. After that there hasn't been a single war between China, Japan and Korea. Is that also because of EU or because we are evolving as a species and a world economy?

Stating that the EU is the only reason why there's been no war within EU is totally off. There's simply no interest in war in Western Europe just like in almost all the other developed countries in the world. The EU has very little to do with that in my opinion.

Ukraine, despite dear Vlad's thoughts, isn't Russia. If Ukraine, a sovereign nation, wants to join the EU, it can, or it can say no. Of that causes problems at home, that's something for Kiev to deal with. I wouldn't point the finger at Brussels and say 'that's your fault'. Has it helped? Probably not (hence why I say it hasn't helped at times). Is it the cause? I'd say that's pushing it. But I don't know enough about it. NATO has a hand here I believe as well?

But that's one example.

Ok so the silly, silly strawman argument that the EU is somehow a global war antidote is wrong, I'm glad we established that.

Your other argument? Sorry to quote myself, but...

18 minutes ago, Chindie said:

The completely sensible and patently obvious position is that the EU has had a hand in preventing Europe collapsing into conflict again. 

Nobody is arguing it's stopped war full stop. That's obscenely stupid. 

The EU isn't the cause of conflicts in the Middle East, or elsewhere. It may well not help in some cases, I'm not going to waste my time jogging truth every conflict outside the EU, but it's not the cause at all.

This response is a head shaker. Has anyone ever said on this site the EU is the antidote to war full stop? I struggle to believe something that daft was said.

 

31 minutes ago, Chindie said:

The founding organisation that became what we now call the EU, the European Coal and Steel Community, was established to assist the continent get back on its feet after 2 generations of horrific war, and to foster a relationship of trade and diplomacy in the ashes of destruction, between mortal enemies.

So to say the EU hasn't had an effect on peace, given the history of Europe, is silly. It established a relationship of everyone being in each others pockets, rather than everyone being at each others throats.

So no, I'm not saying the EU is the all conquering European conflict killer either. Because it isn't. But it's part of the recipe. A reasonably important part. 

[magnkarl]

10 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

Aggro? That's not aggro.

You did not make any point about Western Europe in the original quote - you actually named Eastern Germany and showed a map of all of Europe.

You made a point about right wing light blue in 1973. Well, thirteen of the countries coloured blue on that map didn't exist as real independent entities in 1973, and three of them were right wing dictatorships. So it was a fairly poorly framed question, similar to your usual m.o. of stating one thing, receiving feedback and then arguing over something slightly different that you didn't actually offer in the original post. In my humble opinion. 

Happy for you to put me right though...

My point still remains the same even though you may feel like you've won at the internet. Right wing populism is on the rise in the paying part of the EU, closing our eyes and ears to the problem instead of dealing with it by reforming the EU will lead to trouble.

Cause and reaction and all that.

Edited July 15, 2017 by magnkarl

[Chindie]

8 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

Aggro? That's not aggro.

You did not make any point about Western Europe in the original quote - you actually named Eastern Germany and showed a map of all of Europe.

You made a point about right wing light blue in 1973. Well, thirteen of the countries coloured blue on that map didn't exist as real independent entities in 1973, and three of them were right wing dictatorships. So it was a fairly poorly framed question, similar to your usual m.o. of stating one thing, receiving feedback and then arguing over something slightly different that you didn't actually offer in the original post. In my humble opinion. 

Happy for you to put me right though...

Them there goalposts... They keep moving, or is it me?

[chrisp65]

6 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

My point still remains the same even though you may feel like you've won at the internet. Right wing populism is on the rise in the paying part of the EU, closing our eyes and ears to the problem instead of dealing with it by reforming the EU will lead to trouble.

It's a courgette, not a zucchini. The americans are wrong again.

My nephew knew where there were several farms, yet they are cheaper in Malta sometimes if you look at it that way. 

 

[magnkarl]

2 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

It's a courgette, not a zucchini. The americans are wrong again.

My nephew knew where there were several farms, yet they are cheaper in Malta sometimes if you look at it that way. 

 

Oh crap, someone criticised the system, quick, get the book of diversions. All is well, breathe and relax. 

A lot of the reason why older people that I know voted for Brexit is because of the EU and it's supporters inability to see someone else's point of view. The fact that so many people still show no ability to see the reason why a lot of countries in the EU have growing EU skeptic sentiments will eventually most likely lead to other countries holding their own referendums. 

It's more important to collectively pat each other on the back for "keeping the peace" in a relatively peaceful era of our world history though. Go us!

[chrisp65]

Just now, magnkarl said:

Oh crap, someone criticised the system, quick, get the book of diversions. All is well, breathe and relax. 

A lot of the reason why older people that I know voted for Brexit is because of the EU and it's supporters inability to see someone else's point of view. The fact that so many people still show no ability to see the reason why a lot of countries in the EU have growing EU skeptic sentiments will eventually most likely lead to other countries holding their own referendums. 

It's more important to collectively pat each other on the back for "keeping the peace" in a relatively peaceful era of our world history though. Go us!

This is ridiculous plasticity on a macro zoom debacle.

We never knew or could what bots answer using early a.i..

[limpid]

3 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

We never knew or could what bots answer using early a.i..

I won't allow other AI.

[bickster]

19 hours ago, magnkarl said:

Oh crap, someone criticised the system, quick, get the book of diversions. All is well, breathe and relax. 

A lot of the reason why older people that I know voted for Brexit is because of the EU and it's supporters inability to see someone else's point of view. The fact that so many people still show no ability to see the reason why a lot of countries in the EU have growing EU skeptic sentiments will eventually most likely lead to other countries holding their own referendums. 

It's more important to collectively pat each other on the back for "keeping the peace" in a relatively peaceful era of our world history though. Go us!

I don't actually believe many people if any at all voted to leave the EU because "them people who want to stay won't listen to my point of view". It might be what they say to you but in reality if a million people who wanted to remain had knocked on every one of their doors and listened to every exasperated Daily Heil style rant your thick old friends could muster, they'd still have voted to leave. And they'd still have said no one listened to them. 

Those people are the very definition of the word gobshite.

[magnkarl]

4 minutes ago, bickster said:

I don't actually believe many people if any at all voted to leave the EU because "them people who want to stay won't listen to my point of view". It might be what they say to you but in reality if a million people who wanted to remain had knocked on every one of their doors and listened to every exasperated Daily Heil style rant your thick old friends could muster, they'd still have voted to leave. And they'd still have said no one listened to them. 

Those people are the very definition of the word gobshite.

Probably to some extent. Though the fervent "you want to leave the EU? You're an idiot" stance hasn't really worked out well, now has it?

It's healthy for all political institutions to receive feedback and criticism, and as someone who voted remain I would love if the EU would actually take some of the feedback to heart. Shutting out any criticism by calling people idiots, gobshites or whatever when they disagree with you and intend to vote against you will only make their belief in what they're doing stronger. If people still think that the EU as an institution needs no reform after their second largest member wants to leave I would counter with the fact that they are just as stupid as the people who voted to leave.

The fact that Italy are considering letting 80.000 migrants into the EU on EU visas because Brussels are unwilling or unable to help just shows that they still, 3-4 years later have no clue what to do about the problem. 

The pitfall of a super-organisation like the EU is that it feels good to sit in Brussels in buildings that cost 300 million, where you are so far removed from the actual problems in the union, while at the same time thinking that the same politics and policies that have caused shock waves through Germany, Austria, Croatia, Hungary, Italy etc concerning migrants will continue to work.

The EU preaches unity when it comes to the rich northern countries "carrying the load", however when it comes to the poorer Southern areas being in trouble everything goes very quiet. Macron seems to want to change the way the EU bureaucracy works, but from reports in France he's already at odds with Junker et al. It seems like an organisation that is supposed to serve the interest of the people in the union now has started serving its own interests instead, a bit like Theresa May has served her interests alone with this Brexit negotiation.

[bickster]

Whats 80,000 amongst 750 million? Maybe people in Brussels don't see it as a problem because it actually isn't a problem. In fact, maybe their solution is to let Italy do just that because the amount of people is an irrelevance and if they spread out throughout the EU, no one will actually notice but on the other hand, they can't be seen to be allowing everyone in. In this instance doing nothing is probably the perfect solution

[HanoiVillan]

 

[Chindie]

Even more daft once you consider we have an enormous deficit of nurses that we can't click our fingers and replace with British nurses over night. But we can encourage foreign nurses to join.

...wait.

[Dr_Pangloss]

Aging population makes immigration necessary anyway. 

[magnkarl]

1 hour ago, bickster said:

Whats 80,000 amongst 750 million? Maybe people in Brussels don't see it as a problem because it actually isn't a problem. In fact, maybe their solution is to let Italy do just that because the amount of people is an irrelevance and if they spread out throughout the EU, no one will actually notice but on the other hand, they can't be seen to be allowing everyone in. In this instance doing nothing is probably the perfect solution

We all know that they are not going to go to Romania, Hungary(since their new laws), Spain, Portugal, Greece, Croatia, Slovenia, Poland, any of the Baltic states and so on.

If most of these people want to go to Sweden, Germany, Norway and Denmark like they have so far it will put a massive strain on already overloaded systems. It's not like we're going to allow them to come here, anyway. If all countries in the EU were as much of an aspiration to go to as Sweden then your 750 million argument might hold water. Add 80,000 to the 4-5 million populations of Denmark/Norway or the 7-8 million population of Sweden and the problem is considerable. 

What Brussels needs to do is to find a way for everyone to contribute. It's not fair on Sweden/Denmark and so on to carry the load like they are. It's also a lot easier to force these smaller countries to accept EU decisions than it is to force the larger economies. But hey, it's all fine. It's "just" two of the richest countries in the union, they won't ever consider leaving right?

Edit: Weirdly the countries of two of the leaders of the EU in Junker and Tusk aren't even on the list.

Edited July 16, 2017 by magnkarl

[chrisp65]

Meanwhile an unelected Prime Minister oversees £360 million being given to an unelected head of state to do up their main Palace.

The unelected House of Lords didn't object.

Meanwhile, in other news, Parliament to get £4 billion refurbishment. Bet that doesn't get plastic cladding.

Sooner we get out of the out of touch EU the better.

 

[a m ole]

2 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

Meanwhile an unelected Prime Minister oversees £360 million being given to an unelected head of state to do up their main Palace.

The unelected House of Lords didn't object.

Meanwhile, in other news, Parliament to get £4 billion refurbishment. Bet that doesn't get plastic cladding.

Sooner we get out of the out of touch EU the better.

 

The out of touch, 'unelected' EU. I suppose you can describe them as unelected when turnout for MEP elections is only 30%.

[magnkarl]

2 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

Meanwhile an unelected Prime Minister oversees £360 million being given to an unelected head of state to do up their main Palace.

The unelected House of Lords didn't object.

Meanwhile, in other news, Parliament to get £4 billion refurbishment. Bet that doesn't get plastic cladding.

Sooner we get out of the out of touch EU the better.

 

Quick! Look away! 

I'm not arguing that we should leave the EU, I am arguing that EU needs reform. All the above things infuriate me as much as they do you but I don't see what they have to do with the EU.

Let's just let the growing right populist parties in Sweden and Denmark get on with business without addressing why they have become so popular all the while accepting maybe 8000 asylum seekers while Sweden accepts 70.000 and Denmark accepts 40.000.

Edited July 16, 2017 by magnkarl

[itdoesntmatterwhatthissay]

6 hours ago, bickster said:

I don't actually believe many people if any at all voted to leave the EU because "them people who want to stay won't listen to my point of view". It might be what they say to you but in reality if a million people who wanted to remain had knocked on every one of their doors and listened to every exasperated Daily Heil style rant your thick old friends could muster, they'd still have voted to leave. And they'd still have said no one listened to them. 

Those people are the very definition of the word gobshite.

A huge reason I voted Brexit was because the view of leave was not listened to. How long did people debate the bus, and still do!!!
I certainty don't think a million people read EU Directives like I did, but I do believe the depth at which the referendum was discussed impacted on whether people felt listened to and therefore, shaped their vote.

Politicians are only now talking about the UK policy environment under EU rule, because they absolutely have to. And tbh, in public,  the majority are making a pigs ear of it.
The media still isn't bothering to put that across and continues to concentrate on partisan reporting. 
Voters continue to be taken in by those soundbites because the wider discussion is not readily available or promoted. Rural and coastal communities continue to be sidelined for conversation about the financial sector and manufacturing opportunities that as yet, we are not identifying.

If the conversation before and during the referendum had been phrased as 'How does EU policy really impact prosperity?', both the EU and the UK would have benefited. 
It definitely would've emboldened some leavers but politicians who actually wanted to win votes would have done their research, come out with proper negotiating and reform positions and I truly believe, convinced enough people that many of our problems with the EU are of our own making.
Imo (and it influenced my vote) the decision to not understand that EU environment, despite decades of concern from impacted communities, is a sign that nobody was really listening or had a desire to.

Edited July 16, 2017 by itdoesntmatterwhatthissay

[blandy]

1 hour ago, itdoesntmatterwhatthissay said:

A huge reason I voted Brexit was because the view of leave was not listened to

I think that's, how can I put this? a mistake. Obviously how you vote is entirely up to you, but to say the "view of leave" (whatever that is) wasn't listened to is, um, not really credible.

In terms of the politicians, the likes of Farage, the tory little englanders - the Rees Moggs and all them - they've been banging on about leaving for yonks, and affected Gov't policy and actions enormously over the years. The press likewise has had a huge effect. So they were listened to.

In terms of ordinary people who wanted to leave - the main reasons seemed to be "Foreigners/Immigration, "Control", Money, and Sovereignty.

It's probably true that the effect of immigration on some places was ignored for too long. Though it's also true that the UK chose not to be more stringent on immigration, rather than being somehow forced or unable to because EU. And the UK chose to spend all its money on London and the South East, rather than being more even handed across the board. And anyway, in the past 2 or 3 years, immigration has been a major issue and people have been listened to.

The other 3  - money, sovereignty and control are frankly bollex, or in truth being in the EU is advantageous with regard to these. Money - we're better off in , by a mile. Sovereignty is spurious. the world is interconnected and sovereignty is pooled to an extent in or out of the EU - whether in terms of international treaties, NATO, the UN, trading standards and all the rest. When you ask people "what law are you looking to no longer have to obey the day we've left?" no one can answer.

I'd say if anything, leavers have been listened to too much in many regards.

I'm not an enthusiast for the EU - it is bloated and wasteful and things like the TTIP (which was canned eventually) were shockingly bad, but I voted remain, in the end, because more than anything I don't and didn't trust the effwits who've been wanting to leave to have a clue about what to do or how to negotiate leaving.

[chrisp65]

2 hours ago, a m ole said:

The out of touch, 'unelected' EU. I suppose you can describe them as unelected when turnout for MEP elections is only 30%.

People had the choice to vote or not for MEP's. People used their democratic choice not to bother expressing an opinion.

Best of luck voting for your next king to rule over you.