The now-enacted will of (some of) the people

[Dr_Pangloss]

Brexiteers were always people who spoke in soundbites without a good grasp on the fundamentals. They did not believe that Brexit would actually happen, it was pure politics, now it has happened it appears that the Davies' of the world don't really know what to do. Seems to me that this will be a long, drawn out process that will lead to substantial economic uncertainty. The Tories will not survive this.

[darrenm]

2 minutes ago, Chindie said:

There's a shocker.

This whole thing is absurd and always has been. And like clockwork, as everyone could see, the repeal bill is designed to allow a executive power grab.

Oh and Euratom? Davis is peddling some line about doing a separate deal to join back in to it. Already there's a story doing the rounds that such a deal would be significantly more expensive.

Brexit. A nation increasingly losing it's senses and solemnly clapping them off as they go.

With both parties too afraid to call it as it is because they'll lose the over 50 and working class vote when there could be another election at any time. I **** hate populism and right wing papers.

[snowychap]

8 hours ago, darrenm said:

I said before the referendum that I was voting remain because I believe the EU protects us against a government which sees our human rights as an inconvenience to multinationals and corporates who want to fully exploit us.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/13/great-repeal-bill-human-rights-clause-sets-up-brexit-clash-with-labour

 

 

sigh

As long as we remain signatories to the ECHR and the Tories keep on putting off getting rid of the HRA, I'm not sure that failing to bring the EU charter of fundamental rights in to UK law will matter much.

[peterms]

Oh dear.  That David Davis guy.  Like a smirking turd in my toilet that I can't flush away,  it just comes bobbing back up,  Yes, it'll be easy, they will bend to our will, no, take the picture from fhe left, that's my good side.  Useless arse.

[darrenm]

8 hours ago, snowychap said:

As long as we remain signatories to the ECHR and the Tories keep on putting off getting rid of the HRA, I'm not sure that failing to bring the EU charter of fundamental rights in to UK law will matter much.

I assumed that meant the ECHR wouldn't have any jurisdiction. You've made me worry a bit less if not.

They've been testing the water a few times with scrapping the HRA recently so they're desperate to do it.

Then with Henry VIII powers in the repeal bill they'd be able to do pretty much whatever they like.

[Chindie]

9 hours ago, Dr_Pangloss said:

Brexiteers were always people who spoke in soundbites without a good grasp on the fundamentals. They did not believe that Brexit would actually happen, it was pure politics, now it has happened it appears that the Davies' of the world don't really know what to do. Seems to me that this will be a long, drawn out process that will lead to substantial economic uncertainty. The Tories will not survive this.

They will survive. They might have to take an election or 2 in the wilderness, but they know (the less lunatic ones) this is going to hit hard and they know that will cop flack for it, so the seeds will be sown to direct the story as they want, and they will ensure they take others with them. Labour might follow willingly given their Brexit position.

And the Tories always have support. There will be millions of voters who will not allow the car crash of Brexit to deflect their love of the Blue Team. Already you can see the start of problems festering (yes Brexiteers, it took a while longer than many thought, but it's coming) and still you've millions of Leave voters refusing to accept this is a problem they've made. Tory support will be similar.

[snowychap]

14 minutes ago, darrenm said:

I assumed that meant the ECHR wouldn't have any jurisdiction. You've made me worry a bit less if not.

From what I gather this charter draws on the ECHR (and other things) and there's a special protocol to the Lisbon treaty for us (and Poland) which has been characterized as an opt-out for us but is perhaps best viewed as a clarification of the extent to which it applies, i.e. only to EU law.

There's a lot about it here (with a number of links to other pages).

Quote

A further important international agreement is the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the EU (the charter).  The Charter brings together in a single document the fundamental rights protected in the EU. The Charter contains rights and freedoms under six titles: Dignity, Freedoms, Equality, Solidarity, Citizens' Rights, and Justice. Proclaimed in 2000, it was hoped by the EU that the Charter would become legally binding on all EU member states with the entry into force of the Treaty of Lisbon, on 1st December 2009.  However, the United Kingdom entered into a Protocol to the Lisbon Treaty which has been, misleadingly, often referred to as an 'opt out' to the Charter.

 

14 minutes ago, darrenm said:

They've been testing the water a few times with scrapping the HRA recently so they're desperate to do it.

They've been banging on about it since 2010 but I think we ought to be reassured that even the most vocal proponents of this 'British Bill of Rights' that they'd like to replace it with hasn't really been able to come up with any concrete proposals.

Quote

Then with Henry VIII powers in the repeal bill they'd be able to do pretty much whatever they like.

Indeed. Even with the suggested safeguards in the bill, it's more than a little worrying.

Edited July 14, 2017 by snowychap

[Chindie]

In other Brexit news, the National Audit Office has piped up to note that customs might keel over once we exit. We have a new system coming in, the current one would be completely unable to cope at all with the process, but that has been pushed forward to meet the exit deadline, with little leeway for teething problems (which will happen). Meaning the customs system must learn to cope with an anticipated fivefold increase in workload whilst learning a new system.

Fools.

[itdoesntmatterwhatthissay]

48 minutes ago, Chindie said:

They will survive. They might have to take an election or 2 in the wilderness, but they know (the less lunatic ones) this is going to hit hard and they know that will cop flack for it, so the seeds will be sown to direct the story as they want, and they will ensure they take others with them. Labour might follow willingly given their Brexit position.

And the Tories always have support. There will be millions of voters who will not allow the car crash of Brexit to deflect their love of the Blue Team. Already you can see the start of problems festering (yes Brexiteers, it took a while longer than many thought, but it's coming) and still you've millions of Leave voters refusing to accept this is a problem they've made. Tory support will be similar.

Very similar to Labour too, we are an entrenched country. There will be millions of voters who will say Brexit is a car crash even if things remain the same or improve and they will vote for the only party wanting us to stay in the EU, the red team. That's right isn't it?  Already you can see how appalling those politicians that were voted in are and still you have millions of Remain voters refusing the accept this is a problem they've made and been making for decades.
Labour support will be similar.

[Chindie]

Where did I say Labour are above reproach? I don't particularly support them either. They largely support Brexit. They're foolish to do so.

If you think Brexit isn't going to harm this country your lobbying might require rather more than the common sense cynicism and pinch of salt

[ml1dch]

9 hours ago, Dr_Pangloss said:

Brexiteers were always people who spoke in soundbites without a good grasp on the fundamentals. They did not believe that Brexit would actually happen, it was pure politics, now it has happened it appears that the Davies' of the world don't really know what to do. Seems to me that this will be a long, drawn out process that will lead to substantial economic uncertainty. The Tories will not survive this.

They'll be fine, they'll just change the soundbites.

We're in for 18 months of "bureaucracts punishing the will of the British people", "who would want to be part of a club that treats a former member like this anyway" and "price worth paying for freedom"

Anybody gullible enough to believe the first load will have no problem swallowing the sequel.

[itdoesntmatterwhatthissay]

Quote

Libya’s coast guard abuses migrants despite E.U. funding and training

ZAWIYAH, Libya — The video showed a small rubber dinghy crowded with terrified migrants. Next to it, a uniformed man in a Libyan coast guard boat was yelling and wielding a bullwhip.

The whip slithered through the air and struck a shirtless migrant. The Libyan cracked the whip again, forcing some of the panicked migrants to fall into the sea and struggle to clutch the side of the boat.

“We have to punish them to make them calm down,” said Ramzi Ali, a member of the coast guard unit, shrugging after playing the video on his cellphone. “We need to keep control. They can take our life.”

The European Union has poured tens of millions of dollars into supporting Libya’s coast guard in search-and-rescue operations off the coast. But the violent tactics of some units and allegations of human trafficking have generated concerns about the alliance.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/libyas-coast-guard-abuses-desperate-migrants-despite-eu-funding-and-training/2017/07/10/f9bfe952-7362-4e57-8b42-40ae5ede1e26_story.html?utm_term=.e34d677e6a99

The EU, such a joke. All that money spent last year and what do we get? Libyan soldiers helping migrants across the sea while beating them and Italian coastguards burning toxic plastics in the Med.
Now we want to give them more money!!!!!

Such a massive waste of funding when we could be tackling fundamental problems instead. Will be good to not take responsibility for throwing cash as a problem to solve it....maybe we can actually help the world! 

Meanwhile the EU has pledged to further help Africa....they could start by removing some of the harshest trade barriers which make EU countries rich and African ones poor! 

[itdoesntmatterwhatthissay]

44 minutes ago, Chindie said:

Where did I say Labour are above reproach? I don't particularly support them either. They largely support Brexit. They're foolish to do so.

If you think Brexit isn't going to harm this country your lobbying might require rather more than the common sense cynicism and pinch of salt

No, I just get bored of reading spurious comments and thought I'd have a go myself! Hence saying that Labour voters think they want to remain.

I used red and Labour because you used blue and Tory. Nothing to do with your voting patterns but we live in a two party system, owing to the fact that the Lib Dems have moved away from policy, Greens never really had any and UKIP can only manage one at a time.

As a lobbyist, looking backwards at the world moving helps nobody, as we have seen in the last decade with the EU!
I am not quite ready to make a decision on whether Brexit is bad or not, especially when we haven't left! But I will fight tooth and nail to make sure we can solve our energy crisis without relying on big companies like the EU does, to try and retain our fishing waters for food and conservation, to build homes more reflective of British climate etc. etc. etc.
 

Edited July 14, 2017 by itdoesntmatterwhatthissay

[Chindie]

Fishing problems are of our own making due to the trade of quotas we allow.

[chrisp65]

How will the fish know where the new border is and whether they're great British mackerel or swarthy foreign mackerel?

 

[itdoesntmatterwhatthissay]

4 minutes ago, Chindie said:

Fishing problems are of our own making due to the trade of quotas we allow.

You'll have to help me along with that one as I always thought we set them as part of the EU which fed into international quotas.

As I understood it, and I could be wrong, leaving would allow us the remove our shared quotas and start new ones which we would negotiate on our own. As we would also retain our a large potion of our waters our quotas could be higher and conservation efforts/discard policy less damaging.

Would like to know if I'm wrong though so I don't keep talking carp!

[Chindie]

2 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

How will the fish know where the new border is and whether they're great British mackerel or swarthy foreign mackerel?

 

They'll listen out for good British accents on the boats, double check for the glorious sight of a Union Jack flying proudly from the trawler, and they'll jump into the boat singing in the Queen's English 'Eat me! With chips! And lashings of vinegar and salt! Sabe me from horrible Spanish muck to make my grave!'.

They could do this now, but EU law keeps them prisoner in the sea, for dirty Europeans to steal.

[itdoesntmatterwhatthissay]

2 minutes ago, Chindie said:

They'll listen out for good British accents on the boats, double check for the glorious sight of a Union Jack flying proudly from the trawler, and they'll jump into the boat singing in the Queen's English 'Eat me! With chips! And lashings of vinegar and salt! Sabe me from horrible Spanish muck to make my grave!'.

They could do this now, but EU law forces us to to throw them back, deceased. 

Fixed it for you  

Edited July 14, 2017 by itdoesntmatterwhatthissay

[Chindie]

Fisheries

Quote

Nearly half of England and Wales quota is held by companies based outside of those countries, despite reforms to the EU's fisheries policy, which encourages governments to allocate fishing quota on social and environmental grounds.

Worth looking into the wider findings of that investigation. Such as the glorified dinghy that accounts for a fifth of the South West fishing take but never leaves a marina to help the company that owns it dodge fines on the boats that actually do the work.

[bickster]

It's also quite clear that the British Fishing Industry lobby is so effing dumb it doesn't realise where the problem lies. There's nothing wrong with the EU quotas, it saved the fish population in the North Sea from extinction, the problem lies with how the British Government allocates our part of the quota

As is typically British the fat cats get all the fish and the little guys (the ones that voted to leave and complain that they can't do enough fishing) get totally dicked over.

Simply, our quota is fine, it's the way the UK Government allocates it that is wrong.

The throwing back fish thing is, as usual, a complete red herring